Financial Infidelity. Chelsea Norton

[00:00:30] Bob Wheeler: Welcome to a special edition of Money You Should Ask. We’re here live at FinCon, Austin, Texas. I’m so excited today because our next guest is Chelsea Norton from NEFE, the National Endowment for Financial Education.

Well, it’s another exciting episode of Money You Should Ask and thanks to nefe.org, the National Endowment for Financial Education for sponsoring live podcasting at FinCon 2021. Our next guest is Chelsea Norton. She is the Managing Director of Marketing at NEFE, the National Endowment for Financial Education, where she leads corporate marketing strategy and executing tactics for the organizations educational and consumer focused resources.

She also manages the search engine optimization strategy for NEFE’s nine websites increasing each sites online market share and reaching more than 1 million unique users every year. Chelsea brings a passion for financial capability to her work. Having been employed for several years in her early career at a small credit union, as a collection specialist and loan officer, she understands firsthand how financial matters encompass the lives and wellbeing of Americans today.

Chelsea is busy supporting the micro chain of organic restaurants that she co-ownes with her partner. She’s also an avid athlete who enjoys weightlifting, running, crossfit, mountain biking and hiking. Chelsea, thanks so much for joining.

[00:02:09] Chelsea Norton: Hi, thanks so much for having me.

[00:02:11] Bob Wheeler: Well, I’m excited because financial literacy is sort of a thing. It’s a little bit of a problem.

[00:02:19] Chelsea Norton: Yes.

[00:02:20] Bob Wheeler: And let me ask you this. Did you as, as a young child always say, I want to get into finances. I want to get into counseling. What did young Chelsea want to do before she got to NEFE?.

[00:02:32] Chelsea Norton: You know, it is really interesting, but I do feel like, like some of the fun kind of formative memories that I have of, from my childhood were when my mom would take us to the credit union and we would get to like, make a little deposit into our kid club account.

And that’s the credit union that I started working for when I was old enough to get a job. I said, I want to work for that credit union when I was seven. And I did so yes, I have been a money nerd my whole life.

[00:02:57] Bob Wheeler: And so to that point though, did your mom, so obviously she took you to the credit union to make your deposits, was money talked about in a positive way? It sounds like there was support there.

[00:03:08] Chelsea Norton: Yeah, absolutely. My family really did model kind of good open communication about financial. But my, my, my father was the sole provider. My mother was the one who kind of managed the home and manage finances. And she’s set a really good example for me. She would, you know, sit out every month and have her little kind of budget, you know, paperwork and have her little, she had a recipe card box.

So she kind of kept all of her bills in and things like that. And I saw her really being proactive about her money and money management in the household. And even. My, my parents were both first-generation college students and they really didn’t have a lot. When I was a child, they, they, they showed me how to be frugal and they also showed me how to really pursue what I wanted and, and to become successful for myself.

So, yeah, I, I was very fortunate.

[00:03:50] Bob Wheeler: That’s so awesome. And is there one memory of a financial mantra that was in your house? The mom or dad said?

[00:03:58] Chelsea Norton: I mean, you know, definitely my family really did practice putting things in savings before before we, we had fun with any of our money. So we had little jars that we kept in the kitchen underneath one of the counters.

And when we got $10, we had to take, you know, three of those dollars and put them in savings. And then we had to take another of those dollars and put it into a donation fund for charity. And then we were allowed to spend the rest. So definitely feel like that. Say, you know, pay yourself first, save first, give something, and then you have the rest of that money to use for other, you know, for whatever you want.

That was, that was taught to us from a young age.

[00:04:32] Bob Wheeler: How do you, cause I hear this from a lot of people. I pay myself first. I put it in the savings and now an emergency came up and so I’m just going to dip into that money and then I’ll pay myself back later. Like when are we paying ourselves? And when are we-

self-destructing our money that we’re putting aside.

[00:04:52] Chelsea Norton: Yeah, no, that’s true. I mean, that’s the thing, right? Like your emergency savings is for emergencies. And so that means like, you know, I, I fight with this myself. Like, it, it it’s, it’s, it’s not like the untouchable, like you should never touch it and you should feel super bad about it when you have to, because that’s what it’s there for.

Right. So, you know, I do think it’s a practice of kind of having compassion for yourself and saying like, is this legitimate? Like, is this a need that I need it for? And maybe that’s also about. Kind of sketching that out for yourself when you create the account. Like, this is when I feel like it’s a true emergency and I should take out this money.

You know, if it’s a medical thing, if it’s, if it’s a fun thing that I really feel like is a life experience that I really want to have that’s on my bucket list, you know? And and I feel like I can build that back up confidently. I mean, it doesn’t always have to be like a tragedy. Right. So, yeah, I think like set those rules for yourself and then.

Stick by them. Right,

[00:05:44] Bob Wheeler: Right, Right. No, absolutely. And why is financial education, financial literacy important to you? I mean, obviously you’re working for a foundation that really promotes this. But you have to be. Well, my belief is if you’re working for non-profit, you have to be passionate about what you’re talking about and what you’re bringing.

And so what is your passion around financial literacy?

[00:06:07] Chelsea Norton: You know, I, when I worked for this credit union, I worked for them for like seven years and it led up into the 2008 financial crisis. And so and at the time I was collecting debt for the credit union and I really saw first hand people’s lives just destroyed.

You know, and sometimes overnight by you know, this big thing that was kind of beyond their control. And so it just really kind of resonated really deeply with me that like money can really make or break somebody’s like emotional wellbeing, you know, mental wellbeing and like physical life.

And I just really wanted to, from that moment, like, see if I could have a positive impact in some way and, and NEFE, NEFE is all about providing you know, guidelines for what is effective financial education and, and kind of on a broader scale, like helping kind of elevate the financial wellbeing of people in general.

And so I feel like I get to do kind of the flip side of what I did in the past. That was really difficult work and, and I really love what I do at NEFE and it’s very challenging, but I just feel like so uplifted every day, because we really are just trying to make a difference, you know, trying to kind of shed light bring proper research to this.

 Really just help people be better and do better.

[00:07:20] Bob Wheeler: I think that’s so awesome. And for me personally, when I wrote The Money Nerve and really started doing podcasting and workshops, was to help remove the stigma of shame around this financial lack of literacy. And the other big thing that I’ve discovered is so many people feel like alone.

They feel so isolated and it’s not something we run around saying, oh my God, I just filed bankruptcy. And oh my God, my debt’s at a hundred thousand and I just lost everything in the stock market. It’s not stuff we, we just share openly. There’s so much shame around it. One of the things that I know that we’re going to talk about today.

And I, because this is an exciting topic to me is financial infidelity.

[00:08:00] Chelsea Norton: Yep.

[00:08:01] Bob Wheeler: And I was sharing with you. I had somebody come to me who, the mom would buy new things and then hide them in a closet for a month. And all the kids were in on it. The kids were in on it. Right. Some collusion there and the mom would wait a month, wear stuff

and then when the dad would say, wait, That’s new. No, no, no. I’ve had it for a month or two, so sneaky and so sneaky. And there’s, this is common. Are, there are I think, cause I used to have employees that worked for me that would say, give me my bonus check in a separate check. So my spouse doesn’t know about it.

This is what you’re talking about. I think when you talk about financial infidelity?

[00:08:40] Chelsea Norton: Yeah. That’s exactly right. And you know, you’re correct. It is something that’s really common. So NEFEs been really following kind of this topic of financial infidelity for over a decade. We field polls and, and ask people questions.

 You know, the, the kinds of things that they keep to themselves that they maybe keep from their partner that they’re doing, but they’re not letting their partner’s spouse know about. And we found our most recent poll results are going to actually be coming out and published on NEFE.org in the next few weeks.

But the most most recent poll is in line with our prior polls, which shows that about one in three people admit to some kind of financial infidelity or financial deception. And, you know, what’s interesting about that is also 84% of those respondents say that it impacted their relationship in some way.

[00:09:21] Bob Wheeler: Wow!

[00:09:21] Chelsea Norton: So this is not, right. This is not a harmless, you know, thing that people are doing. And it is really widespread and really common.

[00:09:29] Bob Wheeler: Well, you know, I’m, know people out there that are listening and yes, if you know five credit cards that your spouse doesn’t know about, or your boyfriend or your girlfriend or whoever you’re in a relationship with that sort of some infidelity.

[00:09:42] Chelsea Norton: Yeah.

[00:09:43] Bob Wheeler: Now I’m going to ask a question because there is a fine line, I think too. If I’m a person that’s in a situation where there might be domestic violence.

[00:09:53] Chelsea Norton: Sure.

[00:09:53] Bob Wheeler: Right. I do actually need to protect myself.

[00:09:56] Chelsea Norton: Absolutely.

[00:09:57] Bob Wheeler: I just bring that up because to me that’s a clear situation where you do need to take care of yourself.

And I want to really separate that there are situations where you might need to keep some information close to the cuff.

[00:10:11] Chelsea Norton: Absolutely. Right? Yes. And we definitely would never want someone that feels like they need to do that because they’re planning for their own safety to feel like they should feel guilty about that or that they’re doing something wrong.

I mean, when we’re talking about financial infidelity, we really are talking about like couples that are trying to make it together. That’s it, that’s not something that you can do if you’re in an abusive relationship of any kind. So, you know, in those cases, I would say that’s something that’s a necessity for that person’s personal safety and that is not what we’re talking about.

[00:10:38] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. And I just, it’s important to name that because some people out there might go, oh no, it’s, it’s a different situation. One of the things that I’ve discovered with clients when they come in for a tax meeting or when I do workshops with people around money, couples, they will say, Bob, tell us who’s right on this or that situation.

And I’ll always say before I answer, are you on the same team or somebody trying to get a win here? And what’s the benefit of the win in terms of this relationship that involves two people. And it’s shocking to them. They’re mortified when I call them out. Is this something that sounds familiar?

[00:11:16] Chelsea Norton: I mean, absolutely. You know, it’s the same kind of game and you know, that’s really the question that you have to ask yourself. I think, as like being, being a partner, being in a relationship, like, are you trying to win here or are you actually really trying to like do something kind of together as a couple?

Right. So, I mean, financial infidelity, it can start as something that’s kind of benign as something that you feel like is a really small thing. Like maybe it’s just one purchase that you don’t talk about. No, you don’t share. But the real question is like, is there a rift in kind of your communication that the, the, have you not talked about these values as a couple, have you not had those conversations that you should be having?

And is that what’s kind of leading to this, you know, and then also it’s a slippery, slippery slope, so it could start with one transaction, but it could lead to hiding debts. Right. And when you get into those kinds of things, I mean, that starts to get into the kind of things that actually create separation and divorce and the things that could really end the relationship.

Which is why money is cited as such a common reason that people don’t stay together.

[00:12:14] Bob Wheeler: Yeah, no, absolutely. And it’s interesting. I find that a lot of people, if I say, do you want to have a conversation about money? They actually think, I said, do you want to have a fight about money? Right? Do you want to argue about money?

And so there’s already a trigger for a lot of people because in some families there is money means conflict.

[00:12:36] Chelsea Norton: Absolutely. I mean, it’s a fully loaded thing for so many people, right. It makes me think of the the, the story that you were just talking about about the, the mom who, you know, was kind of modeling that for her kids.

And I was just thinking like, that’s what they’re learning, you know? So they’re going to carry that forward into another relationship because that’s what they’re saying is like the dynamic. So, I mean, I do feel like it’s so easy to just kind of like root that in conflict. And I think it’s because, you know, we’re just naturally defensive and i feel like you know, kind of the antidote to that is really just having open communication, even if that is to kind of set boundaries.

[00:13:09] Bob Wheeler: Okay. I find it so interesting that a lot of people don’t have any conversation before they get married. And that’s, and I’ll ask people on my show did you check your partner’s credit?

Did you find it? Did you talk about things, but are you a spender? Are you a saver? And a lot of people will say no, we just married for love. I had a client who married somebody. They didn’t discuss it, and they had some big refunds. They hadn’t filed some returns and we filed three, four years of returns and there was about $40,000 in refunds coming.

Well, they didn’t show up. Well, it turns out that one of them had about a hundred thousand dollars of student loan debt. They had never paid. A hundred thousand dollars worth of credit card debt that they had never shared.

[00:13:53] Chelsea Norton: Oh man.

[00:13:54] Bob Wheeler: And I actually asked the other person, are you angry? And they said, you know, I actually married for better or worse and we’re going to figure it out. I don’t know that many people would do that.

[00:14:05] Chelsea Norton: That’s a strong couple. I mean, just like, you know, there’s a reason that it’s called financial infidelity because infidelity implies that there’s some kind of a betrayal, some kind of a secret, something that’s not being told. And I mean, really at the end of the day, that is something that erodes trust in a relationship.

Trust is really essential. You know, if you’re going to try and stick together, whether it’s a marriage or a partnership or whatever, if you’re going to stick together for the long haul, you really got to feel like that person has your back. And it’s really hard to do that when you also feel like there’s some little thing that you have to insert there that you can’t share, you got to keep secret or something like that.

[00:14:36] Bob Wheeler: Do you see a lot of couples where one makes more money than the other, and then uses it maybe as a way to, like, I make the money, even though you run the household or whatever it might be. And then that causes the other person to say, well, you know what, I’m going to start my own little nest egg.

[00:14:54] Chelsea Norton: Yeah. I mean, I really feel like more so than that, I think that what, what the biggest trigger for kind of financial infidelity is just people that haven’t had that conversation. Yes, control of money can be a factor. But I mean, really, you know, I think when people don’t actually kind of agree on how that’s going to be managed, that’s really where it comes into play.

So I think, you know, any kind of financial situation or arrangement that you have with your finances, it’s, it’s fine. As long as you’re both on the same page, it’s when you’re not on the same page. And that’s why, I mean, love is wonderful. And we all want to have, you know, a relationship that’s kind of founded on love, but at the same time, You can, you can still have that relationship be as, as wonderful

and as passionate and also kind of figure out these details and just have that be like the subtext that we got out of the way. And I feel like that’s, what’s really important is just making sure that you’re on the same page from the beginning.

[00:15:48] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. And it’s interesting. I’ve, I’m thinking to a couple of workshops that I had.

One of the things that I’ve told people when I try and get them to start conversations, of course, shamelessly I’ll say, use my book because at the end of each chapter, it goes through fear. It goes through emotion. It goes through family history and those are all important components. If as a child, I was shamed.

Or if, as a child I was told you can’t have whatever you want. If I have a fear of running out of money or if I have a fear of not spending enough, like whatever those things are that if they can go through and have these conversations, how do you encourage people to start these conversations? Because they’re scary and they’re loaded.

They are loaded with emotions and trauma, landmines, landmines.

[00:16:31] Chelsea Norton: Yeah. Absolutely. That’s a really good question. So, you know, the first thing I think that we tell people is to accept that it’s going to be a difficult conversation. Like you just got to know it’s not going to be easy. It’s not like a, by the way, you know, also keep in mind how you’re doing that.

I heard something really interesting one time at a relationship kind of event that I went to and said, when you’re like, think about when you’re in a car and you’re driving next to each other, what’s like what you’re doing. You’re, you’re in a vehicle that is propelling itself at a very high speed and anything can potentially happen.

And so there’s like the subconscious part of you that has to be ready for anything. And you’re also not facing each other as a couple. And so that, that person that was teaching the session was saying like, never have an important conversation when you can’t look at each other. And there’s the potential for like anything to change at any moment.

That is not the right time to hit somebody up about like, talking about your money, right. Or talking about a delicate subject. So I try to always keep that in mind and just so understand that it’s going to be difficult. Think about what you want from the conversation. And then really importantly, don’t sabotage and don’t set traps, right?

Like. You don’t want to catch someone up in doing something that you feel or suspected they’ve been doing and then, and then expect to have a productive conversation. Like really try to approach this from like, I want to solve this problem together. I want to keep this relationship together and then also get on the same page.

So. If you haven’t had like, nobody’s perfect. And the chances are you actually, haven’t had this conversation with a person that you’re in a relationship with already. And if you haven’t, that’s okay. It’s never too late to gain ground to get on the same page to figure out what your values are and to figure out how you want to operate.

Right. So don’t say that it’s too late. And so I can’t do it. Any time, now is the right time. Anytime is the right time to have this conversation and you know, when we talk about infidelity of any kind, really, there is a loss of trust. You know, we talked about that before, so understand that you’re going to have to rebuild that trust together and do that by having a lot of conversations and being really transparent.

You know, it’s really just set the example for each other about how you want this relationship to improve and to move forward and just give it a shot.

[00:18:38] Bob Wheeler: Yeah, I think that’s so important. And I think that part about difficult conversations is we have to learn how to stay. And I think so often in this day and age, we run.

[00:18:49] Chelsea Norton: Yeah.

[00:18:50] Bob Wheeler: And if we know it’s uncomfortable, we know it’s difficult. And if we can learn to tolerate, like what’s coming at us, the judgments, the triggers, and know that we’ve just both got some history that if we can just keep breathing, take a lot of breaths. Also, I think it’s important in the timing. Like let’s not have this conversation after you just got fired.

Let’s not have this conversation in the middle of a crisis and it might even be on Monday. Hey, do you think this weekend we could set aside 20 minutes and then not make each other wrong. I had this woman that came to me and she said, you know, my husband won’t get on board with me.

Probably as long as you keep going, when are you going to get on board with me and do this, right. He’s never going to get on board. Maybe you could approach it from, I’m really trying to get my financial stuff together. And I’m wondering how I can get you to support me to be a better me. Oh my God. I could do that.

Right because the defenses are down when we engage people to actually help us. Instead of you, you, you, you, you that we have to find the we and the place where it’s me.

[00:20:02] Chelsea Norton: And model the behavior, right. Model the behavior that you want to see. So that’s, that’s exactly right. You want to bring somebody along with you.

Usually people will be able to do that a little bit better if you don’t turn the spotlight on them.

[00:20:11] Bob Wheeler: Right.

[00:20:11] Chelsea Norton: They don’t want to say like, nobody wants to be, be told, like, let’s talk about your problems. You know, let’s talk about our, let’s talk about a strategy for me, or let’s talk about something that we can do together that will make us happier.

That’s a much better approach.

[00:20:22] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. And we, so for me, I find that if I engage people to come with me, instead of me focusing on what they’re not coming up to terms with, you know, I’ve already read the book and I’ve already done the work yet. We’re not going anywhere. Right. What’s the goal to win the kudos points for having done the work, or am I in the long-term relationship for this?

[00:20:45] Chelsea Norton: Do you want to be the right person or do you want to be the happy person? Happy couple, right? Yeah. Yeah,

[00:20:49] Bob Wheeler: Absolutely.

 It’s so important. Well we are at our fast five. And we’re going to just shift the energy just a little bit, and I’m going to ask you, these are personal questions for you.

[00:20:59] Chelsea Norton: Okay.

[00:20:59] Bob Wheeler: So what’s the most expensive thing you ever bought that did not meet your expectations?

[00:21:04] Chelsea Norton: Oh man. Okay. I know it because I was, when I was in MBA school, I was super poor. I was paying for my own education. I always had been. And so there was this one event that we had where like one of the coveted internships was Nordstrom’s. And we went to this Nordstrom’s like thing that they were doing some event and they of course were like using this as an opportunity to sell to us.

And I really felt like I had to buy something or else I wasn’t going to fit in with this group. And it was like the one, like one of the few times where I’ve actually totally caved to that pressure. And I bought this jacket and I can’t even, like, I can’t even say how expensive it was now. Like I just can’t even say it out loud, but I bought this jacket and I was like, okay, like, you know, this is gonna change my life.

Like this one jacket and I it’s still in my closet. I’ve probably worn it like in, since in the 10 or 11 years, since I graduated, I’ve probably worn it like three times. Like it’s not even a full jacket. The sleeves don’t even go down to my wrist. Like it doesn’t keep me warm. It was the, the silliest, like, to this day, I’m still so disappointed in myself that I did not have the guts to just be like, I am not spending more money than I should on a dumb piece of clothing from Nordstrum.

[00:22:09] Bob Wheeler: Thats funny. So you can say no. It’s allowed.

[00:22:12] Chelsea Norton: Yes! Be brave.

[00:22:13] Bob Wheeler: Be brave. If you had one word to describe your relationship with money, what would it be?

[00:22:18] Chelsea Norton: One word to describe my relationship with money? Dynamic.

[00:22:22] Bob Wheeler: I love it. I love it. I love it. Besides taxes, what is one thing you really hate spending money on.

[00:22:29] Chelsea Norton: It’s interesting that I gave the Nordstrom story because I really don’t like spending a ton of money on fashion. It’s just not my thing. I’m like, I’m like you paid $300 for jeans and I can get like serviceable jeans for 50. Like, I, I just am never going to be a brand chaser. So sometimes people ask me what I’m wearing and where it’s from.

And I’m like, Tarjet. I am not, I am not a fancy person.

[00:22:52] Bob Wheeler: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. If you won, if you won the lottery, like hit it big, would you keep it super secret or would you tell people?

[00:23:00] Chelsea Norton: That’s a good question. I’d probably tell a select group of people. And it would probably be just the people that I was giving money to. Because I feel like if I won the lottery, what I’d really want to do first and foremost is like, make other people’s lives better.

Like really surprise some people with some things that they either need or really want that I’m close with. So I’d have to disclose to those people or else they’d be like, are you a drug dealer? And you know, I, I, I don’t want to get turned in for anything. So, so yeah, I would say a few people, but I’d probably keep it pretty quiet.

[00:23:27] Bob Wheeler: That’s awesome. Which, so besides the Nordstrom story, are there any other financial regrets that you have?

[00:23:34] Chelsea Norton: Yeah. Well, I will say, you know, the only other thing that I can think of is you know, financing my graduate degree was something that I really went into thinking more about like the school that I wanted to go to as opposed to what I was going to have to deal with in terms of the student loans afterwards.

So, you know, if I wasn’t a 20 something that was trying to make this decision with far too little information, you know, I would’ve probably done things much differently. So that is something that I would say, like, I’m, I’m grateful for the education, but I wish that I had taken a different approach to financing it.

[00:24:07] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. And I think there’s a lot of people out there. The, the brand name of the college, where they could get the same information, maybe at a community college or they’re going into something that doesn’t require it.

[00:24:18] Chelsea Norton: Absolutely.

[00:24:19] Bob Wheeler: So think about that before you go into college student loan debt. Real quick, what is a piece of practical advice or a piece of financial wealth wisdom that you can share? Cause it’s our M and M spot. Our sweet spot.

[00:24:32] Chelsea Norton: I love it. Yeah. So this one was super easy for me to think of. You know, every time I’ve gotten an increase at NEFE or every time I’ve got a bonus or something like that, or in any of my, any of my jobs the, the, the first thing I do is I increase the amount of money that is automatically going into my retirement savings accounts or my other savings accounts.

So those always come out before I see my regular paycheck and and that way I’m saving more like the, the amount that I’m saving for retirement just increases automatically. And I don’t even see it. So rather than saying, Oh, great. When I get this bonus, I’m going to sit down and figure out how much, just like plan for the fact that you’re going to get that or plan for the fact that you’re gonna get that raise beforehand and like automatically have that money go somewhere else.

So you never see it and you never miss it.

[00:25:14] Bob Wheeler: That’s awesome. Well, you know, I know we’re coming to the end here, but you know, Chelsea, what I’ve really been hearing today is a lot of openness and a willingness to explore versus especially with couples and not this who’s at fault and who to blame. And even in your own life, I hear you saying, okay, that was a regret, but I don’t hear you saying, like, I need to beat myself up for the rest of my life.

 It’s not too late to jump in the game of getting better informed about finances and making choices, like wherever you are. Today’s the day to just make an improvement, even one little baby step towards a better financial future can be achieved. And I, I love that you’re passionate about educating people.

It’s so important. People you’re not alone. There’s nothing to be ashamed of. There is help. You just have to reach out with your left or right hand or pick up the phone or go to the internet and we can all have more financial literacy in our lives. There’s no shame.

And Chelsea, I just appreciate that you, NEFE is out here sponsoring this. And that you’re out there really trying to actually make a difference for people that out there who don’t have the tools.

[00:26:28] Chelsea Norton: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. And I totally agree with what you said. I mean, it, like every day is a chance to do something different. Every day is a chance to be, to be in, do better, to be better as a couple.

Did you better as a couple to be better for yourself? Right. So don’t be ashamed. Don’t, don’t feel like you have to hide things. Just, just take a new opportunity and a fresh start because we have a chance every single day to do that until we don’t have any more days.

[00:26:52] Bob Wheeler: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

[00:26:54] Chelsea Norton: Thank you so much. It was great to talk to you.

[00:26:56] Bob Wheeler: Great talking.