Raising Other People’s Children. Debbie Ausburn

Bob Wheeler:
Debbie, so excited to have you on the show today. I’m really excited to get into this topic of fostering.

Debbie Ausburn:
Thank you so much for the opportunity. I’m looking forward to it.

Bob Wheeler:
So let’s just jump right in. What was the inspiration for you to take on this role of foster parenting, right? It’s an important role. It’s a lot of commitment. What was it that pulled you in?

Debbie Ausburn:
Well, part of it was I just, I grew up with parents who were always working with other kids at that time. We called them at-risk kids. And then when I graduated from college, I graduated with a degree in education and somewhere during that process when it was too late for me to change my major, I realized that my one-on-thirty skills were not really all that great, but my one-on-one skills were pretty good.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Debbie Ausburn:
So I, and my mom had connections with in the juvenile justice. She was working for the juvenile justice division for the state at the time. So it was sort of a natural inclination for me to go in as a caseworker.

My first job out of college was as a caseworker for juvenile court. And I just had a lot of kids on my caseload who they were the ones responding rationally crazy family situations. So that, it just, you know, spoke to my heart in a way that kids have just, they’ve always come in on a different channel for me than adults have. I burned out at that job. I got tired of dipping out the ocean with a teaspoon.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Debbie Ausburn:
So I retreated to law school and, but kept my passion for working with kids. So I just sort of went back to my skill sets, which was working one-on-one with kids. And I knew what I was getting into and I knew the need for foster parents. And so when I was at a job where I was stable enough that I was going to stay in long enough, I signed up with an agency.

I was in Western North Carolina at the time and I signed up with, I didn’t sign up directly with the state agency. I signed up with an agency that had a contract. with the state. I wanted that extra level. There were several things that agency promised that are offered and provided that the state didn’t have. And so it was, I enjoyed working with the agency and they provided a lot of resources that I needed.

Bob Wheeler:
And then, so you became a foster parent, right? And

Debbie Ausburn:
Right.

Bob Wheeler:
got involved. What would you say were some of the most unexpected challenges you faced financially, emotionally? Like, it’s a new world.

Debbie Ausburn:
The financial challenges were not really as hard for me as the emotional challenges, but there were some financial challenges. I was surprised when I got into the agency to discover that the stipends just don’t cover everything that kids need and that the government resources particularly, well, medical care actually they’re pretty good on.

But mental health care, it’s just horrible. It’s just really terrible for people on government assistance. They’re limited to low cost government programs and it’s hard to find qualified staff for low cost government programs. So you usually get second tier people working there or top tier people who are there temporarily until they can find something else. So the mental health services are just really. awful. So I ended up having to supplement a lot of that myself.

And it was frankly just easier and simpler and better for my kids for me to just find the money and pay it straight out. So that was the biggest financial challenge for me. And then of course there were the emotional challenges of connecting with someone who from their perspective, I’m not supposed to be in their life. you know, if the life, if we’re all worked the way they were supposed to, they would be with their biological family. And that’s, that’s one of those lessons.

My book is, the blogging and stuff that I do sort of looks at the intersection between foster parenting. and step-parenting because that was sort of my second life was marrying a man who raised five kids and the two of them were still at home when I married him. And learning that from the kids perspective is one of my kids told me once in all love and candor, he said to his dad, well, yeah, if I had a magic wand, you and mom would be back together.

And then he looked over at me very concerned and said, well, no insult, Debbie, you would be living right next door. You and the dogs. Actually, it wasn’t just me, it was me and the dogs would be

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Debbie Ausburn:
living right next door. And you know, from my kid’s perspective, foster kids or step kids, it doesn’t matter how wonderful I am. They still would rather me be the… basketball coach or the nice lady next door who bakes cookies or the

Bob Wheeler:
right.

Debbie Ausburn:
Sunday school teacher or somewhere in their constellation but not their parents.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, and that makes sense, right? We want to have that, whether it’s a fantasy or just, I want what everybody else has or what’s supposed to be the normative. Like, I just want to fit in with all my friends and have a

Debbie Ausburn:
Yep.

Bob Wheeler:
mommy and daddy like everybody else.

Debbie Ausburn:
Right, right. And it’s not even just having two people there, it is having the biological people there, you know?

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
And all you have to do is go watch the parent trap, either the old one or the more recent one. And that’s where kids are coming from.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. I think most, maybe, well, I shouldn’t say most, I would imagine a lot of people don’t realize when kids come into your home that are part of the foster system, there’s a lot of trauma.

Debbie Ausburn:
Oh yes,

Bob Wheeler:
Like there’s a lot of trauma

Debbie Ausburn:
yes.

Bob Wheeler:
we don’t even know about. There may have been abuse, there may have been addiction, there may have just the abandonment issues. And so the first year, two, three or four, or beyond may be about actually dealing with all the trauma.

Debbie Ausburn:
Yes. Well, just moving into a house with a stranger is traumatic. It doesn’t matter how nice the foster parents are. Just that sense of moving in is it carries its own level of trauma. And then you have the past trauma with kids that can cause a lot of issues.

The analogy that I use that I think may be the most people can understand better is when you’re dealing with a kid who’s suffered trauma, it’s sort of like dealing with a computer that has stuff going on in the background that is hogging all the resources.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
And so what you have on the front of your screen is glitchy and slow and contradictory and frustrating and annoying as all heck. And so when you have kids who are suffering trauma, A good chunk of their brain is in the background processing that trauma, still trying to deal with it. And what we get at the front is glitchy and stubborn and annoying and frustrating.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
So to some degree, they can’t help their responses.

Bob Wheeler:
For

Debbie Ausburn:
Now

Bob Wheeler:
sure.

Debbie Ausburn:
they are not victims. I mean, they are victims, but their victimhood does not define them.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
So they have been victims, that doesn’t mean they have to be victims for the rest of their life. So part of dealing with kids is helping them process that trauma and still be resilient. So what we as parents have to do is there’s a very fine line and it’s an art. There’s no way to tell you where these lines are.

You just have to be sensitive and understand where your kid’s coming from. But sometimes it is things that kids can’t help. And then sometimes they’re just being kids and they’re leaning into whatever excuse they’ve got.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
And our job is to help them be accountable and help them get rid of those excuses, recognizing the trauma, but moving past it.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah. And did your background in law help you navigate the system, help you navigate with the kids, or that was just incidental?

Debbie Ausburn:
It helped me navigate a few situations from time to time. I, you know, it helped me be able to read the law and argue sometimes with the caseworkers. It helped me a few times with the school, be able to deal with IEPs and those kinds of things. But it really, it just, being a lawyer is sort of more a function of my. personality then

Bob Wheeler:
Mm-hmm.

Debbie Ausburn:
so it gave me skills that helped me argue with people and push back when I needed to.

Bob Wheeler:
Sometimes you need to. Sometimes

Debbie Ausburn:
Sometimes you

Bob Wheeler:
you…

Debbie Ausburn:
need to.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. When you were fostering, I know there was the mental health issue and having to supplement. How do you share your… values. How do you, I mean, did you talk to the kids about money? Did you talk to the kids about different life skills?

Debbie Ausburn:
It depended on their age and maturity level and how long they were with me. The kids who were able to understand and look at money, particularly the ones who would say to me, oh, you’re just making money off having me here.

Bob Wheeler:
Wow.

Debbie Ausburn:
I was particularly starting preteen to teen, I, and this is a process that was gradual, I sort of learned how this worked. But I started just saying to kids, okay, fine. I get X dollars for you. And here’s, I spend X dollars on the utilities and this, that, and the other. But that leaves open Y dollars.

I’ll just give you control of those Y dollars. Now that means you don’t ask me for a close, because that comes out of here. You don’t ask me for entertainment, because that comes out of this. And we just sat down and worked out. what they were responsible to pay for, what the rules were.

Again, that depends, and the amount depended on the age and what the rules were depended on the age, you know, with preteen boys, I had to say, and so much has to be spent on underwear instead of games every month. So with, you know, with teenage girls, it wasn’t quite that. And then we… we, and I can talk more about negotiating and how the only way that works is if I really say, no, really, I’m not giving you any extra money. You have spent your money for the month.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
But that sort of doing it that way helped in a lot of ways. One was they actually saw directly the money that was coming in. And then secondly, it removed a lot of eventually removed a lot of sources of argument and confrontation because whenever they would say I need XYZ, I could just say well, you’re going to have to save your money for it or needs to come out of your budget.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, that’s great. I, you know, I didn’t even think about the piece really where the kids might be saying, you’re just doing it for the money, right?

Debbie Ausburn:
Oh yeah.

Bob Wheeler:
And, and I’m aware, at least in California and I’m sure other places, there have been cases where there’s like 12 foster kids

Debbie Ausburn:
Yeah.

Bob Wheeler:
in a house and somebody’s really just cashing in on the stipends.

Debbie Ausburn:
Yeah.

Bob Wheeler:
And, and so there is like, it’s not a, uh, there are flaws in the system.

Debbie Ausburn:
Yeah, yeah, of course there are. Yes, definitely.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, and some people are gonna get a great foster parent and some people not so much. It’s what we’ve got, which is why we need to fix it and get that thing going.

Debbie Ausburn:
Yeah, exactly. There’s a lot of areas that need fixing, and it’s very complicated, and it’s very difficult. And it is hard for bureaucracies because they have to have the same rules for everybody, but the same rules for everybody don’t work well for everybody.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, I, you know, I sometimes read the news about a foster parent or something happens to a kid and the system failed because of the bureaucracy and it’s frustrating sometimes to see that we can’t be the best we can be just because of the rules in place or there’s

Debbie Ausburn:
Right.

Bob Wheeler:
this and, and it, it’s well-meaning, but it may not be well-serving.

Debbie Ausburn:
Right, right, right. And many times, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say it’s well-meaning, although I honestly think sometimes it’s just the bureaucracy protecting itself from lawsuits. That’s my perspective as a lawyer.

Bob Wheeler:
For sure.

Debbie Ausburn:
But, and you know, organizations protect themselves. It’s sort of the rule number one is self-preservation. But the rule, for example, that kids cannot stay any extended period of time with other adults unless the other adults have background checks. Well, in practice, that means kids don’t get sleepovers.

They can’t go spend the weekend with their friends at a vacation house. They can’t go to Disney World with anyone except the family they’re with. And the family they’re with, when they need respite care, it’s really hard to find someone for the kid to stay a weekend because you’ve got to have someone. who has been through the criminal background check.

Now, the thing is that 95% of those cases, the kids would be perfectly fine staying with someone without a background check. The system will tell you they’re doing that to protect the kids. No, no, they are protecting themselves from the lawsuits from those 5% of kids who might end up being harmed. So.

Bob Wheeler:
Right, for the greater good, so to speak.

Debbie Ausburn:
So to speak,

Bob Wheeler:
So

Debbie Ausburn:
yeah.

Bob Wheeler:
to speak. Well, Debbie, we’re gonna take just a moment to test your nerve. We’re gonna shift

Debbie Ausburn:
Okay?

Bob Wheeler:
the energy real quick. Test Your Nerve is brought to you by themoneynerve.com and all the listeners out there, if you wanna test your nerve and uncover the dirty truth about your finances, visit testyournerve.com for a free quiz. All right, here we go, down and dirty. Debbie, how did your childhood influence your views on money today?

Debbie Ausburn:
Oh, it sort of made me a bit schizophrenic because my mom was much more careful with money than my father. And so I can on any given day channel my mother and follow everything and clip coupons and those sort of things. Or I can channel my dad and say, oh, I got a credit card with no zero limit. I can… go to Europe this week.

Bob Wheeler:
Boom! There you go. I love it. How do you cope with financial stress? The zero free credit card?

Debbie Ausburn:
So,

Bob Wheeler:
No.

Debbie Ausburn:
no, I pay my credit cards off every month. That is actually, I learned through long experience about, as many of your listeners probably have been through the same experience about 20 or 30 years ago, I learned, oh no, it’s a lot of stress to carry balance.

Bob Wheeler:
Yes.

Debbie Ausburn:
It really is much less stress in the long run to just pay them off every month.

Bob Wheeler:
Paid off, yeah. So how do you deal with it though? Like if you get stressed, do you just channel your mom or do you…

Debbie Ausburn:
Yeah, I channel my mom. Of course, it helps now to be able to talk to my husband and vent. And through many years of marriage, he has learned that when I’m talking to him about some financial issue, I don’t want a solution. I am not asking him to solve the problem.

Bob Wheeler:
Men like to do that, don’t they?

Debbie Ausburn:
They do. They do. So fortunately I have trained him. No, no, no. I am venting. I am not asking for solutions, which signals to him he is just supposed to say, you’re fine. You’re wonderful. Everything will be okay.

Bob Wheeler:
Memorize the script. Nod

Debbie Ausburn:
That’s

Bob Wheeler:
your

Debbie Ausburn:
right.

Bob Wheeler:
head.

Debbie Ausburn:
That’s right. Exactly.

Bob Wheeler:
Absolutely.

Debbie Ausburn:
Say it like you mean it.

Bob Wheeler:
Exactly. Make me believe. Make me believe. What is one thing that you just hate to spend money on, not including taxes? Like, just like, ugh, it’s killing me.

Debbie Ausburn:
Gosh, what do I really hate every month? It has to be, I’m thinking through the thing. Right now it’s gas prices. What I have to pay to go from point A to point B. And I love getting to point B, but just having to pay that.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Debbie Ausburn:
cost, you know, that, even in Atlanta, where I live now, it’s not as bad as it is for you guys in California. But I’m just standing there watching my money. As I pay, put gas in my car, I am literally sitting there watching the wheels turn, how

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah,

Debbie Ausburn:
much I’m spending.

Bob Wheeler:
it’s painful. I, sadly, I can remember when gas was 35 cents.

Debbie Ausburn:
Yes, yes,

Bob Wheeler:
And

Debbie Ausburn:
yes.

Bob Wheeler:
now $7 just feels hard.

Debbie Ausburn:
Yes, yes, I know. It’s like, where is all this? Of course, that will get us into taxes, since a good chunk of it is taxes.

Bob Wheeler:
Exactly, exactly. Alright, so when you’re out with a group of friends for dinner, do

Debbie Ausburn:
Mm-hmm.

Bob Wheeler:
you pay the whole check? Do you split it equally? Do you calculate how much you owe? Do you let somebody else pay or do you go hide in the bathroom till it’s all over?

Debbie Ausburn:
It depends. If I can deduct it on my taxes, I put it on my business credit card and I pay the whole thing. If it’s not tax deductible, we split it.

Bob Wheeler:
And do you worry about if somebody had the dessert or you had the glass

Debbie Ausburn:
No,

Bob Wheeler:
of wine or is it we just sort of?

Debbie Ausburn:
I go for what’s easiest. I have learned, maybe it’s a function of being a lawyer where my time has a money value,

Bob Wheeler:
Yep, time

Debbie Ausburn:
but

Bob Wheeler:
is money.

Debbie Ausburn:
time is money. I’d just rather pay the extra $3 than spend the three minutes calculating it.

Bob Wheeler:
I’m with you, I’m with you, I’m totally with you. Looking back on your financial journey, what would you say you’re most proud of and what do you hope to achieve in the future?

Debbie Ausburn:
I think I’m most proud of being able to invest in real estate. That’s actually, I don’t have a stock portfolio because I don’t understand stocks. So, but I do understand renters and people who I have. I have a much higher tolerance for renters who don’t pay me money and are obnoxious to me than I do for stocks that drop for reasons that I don’t understand. So,

Bob Wheeler:
Make sense.

Debbie Ausburn:
we have a, my husband and I have a fairly good portfolio of rental properties now. And I think in the future, I would just like to do some renovations to match the market. And, you know, keep… raising the rent, the value of this.

Bob Wheeler:
Now that’s awesome. And you know, you bring up a point that is, um, I wanted to be a landlord. I was going to just buy up the world, right. And be

Debbie Ausburn:
Right,

Bob Wheeler:
this mogul

Debbie Ausburn:
right.

Bob Wheeler:
with real estate. And I did one property. I was a terrible landlord. I was too nice. I wouldn’t enforce things. I was like, I got to get out of this. I’d rather go and deal with the stock that I don’t always understand.

And so I think, you know, like what you’re saying is go with what you know, or go with what’s comfortable. Because for some people it’ll be the real estate some people it’s gonna be the stocks other people that might be private notes Whatever it is. I Just when I see people jumping into crypto and things they don’t understand at all

Debbie Ausburn:
No.

Bob Wheeler:
and then they just you know I have clients going I’m gonna make a million dollars. Then I’m like they’re like

Debbie Ausburn:
No.

Bob Wheeler:
I just lost a hundred thousand dollars

Debbie Ausburn:
Right, right.

Bob Wheeler:
I Like to go into things I know

Debbie Ausburn:
Right, right, exactly. And I think it’s important to diversify. You know, we don’t have a lot of money in commercial properties, right? Which right now is a good thing because

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Debbie Ausburn:
commercial properties have just tanked since the pandemic.

Bob Wheeler:
And if you had

Debbie Ausburn:
So.

Bob Wheeler:
told me pre-pandemic that commercial property was a bad deal, I would have said you’re crazy. What could possibly happen? Oh, that.

Debbie Ausburn:
That. Right.

Bob Wheeler:
That happened. Yeah, it’s crazy. Well, if people so going back to fostering and we’ve just been talking about a little bit about money For people that want to go into fostering What are some of the things? Um that they might need to know and how can people get involved so that they can be prepared to help?

Debbie Ausburn:
Well, I have always recommended to folks that you go into it one step at a time. So for example, there are many agencies that will let you pair up with an existing foster family and they can mentor you and you can offer support to them.

There are different states will allow, and it depends on the state level. I think there are some states that strangely enough, don’t allow respite families. But most states will allow you to sign up as a respite family paired with another family and you will take the kids on weekends, for example, so that

Bob Wheeler:
OK.

Debbie Ausburn:
the family can sometimes it’s single mothers who just need a weekend themselves, sometimes it’s the family. needs to go on college trips and so they have to have somewhere for the kids to stay. So the respite care allows you to get a taste of it without being solely responsible for a child’s care.

The next step is to be a short-term foster parent. I did emergency foster parenting for a while which was I would get the kids at 10 o’clock at night and would would keep them until the caseworker could find a long-term, more stable placement for them. That worked for my job at the time.

I couldn’t handle kids long-term because I was doing a lot of traveling, but I could work the short-term around my travel schedule. So, and that was one of the reasons when I did move into long-term care, the reason I went with that particular agency is because they offered respite care. for the

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
kids so that when I had to go out of town for a trial, there was a stable place that the kids already knew that they could stay. So that works very well for folks doing that. And then the second thing, once you sort of go step by step into it, the other thing is you really, you have to have a safety net.

You have to have a network of people to help out. And I was a single foster parent for a number of years. And one of my kids called having what turned out to be a gallbladder issue at age 17, which is unusual, but it still happened.

I was out of town and had to call one of my friends and say, can you take my kid to the emergency room and stay there until I can finish with this court hearing and get home? So you have to have that network of folks. This is not something that you can do alone.

Bob Wheeler:
makes sense. We have to pause real quick. Yeah, I mean that having that support network makes sense. Like it takes a village, right? It takes a village.

Debbie Ausburn:
Yes.

Bob Wheeler:
So let me ask you this. What role do you think that foster parenting plays in society, right? How can we better care for children that are in need? Because it seems to me, if we don’t take care of these kids now and when they start to age out and then they have no support, some of them, It comes back to us.

Debbie Ausburn:
Yes.

Bob Wheeler:
Positive or negative, it’s going to come back to us because now we’ve got people out in society with no network, with no ground, with no support system. Can you talk a little bit about that, the role?

Debbie Ausburn:
Well, foster parents are absolutely essential and all of our government money right now is highly geared towards foster parenting or kinship care, which is another type of foster parenting. One of the big issues that we have right now is unfortunately the kids are, and I think I alluded to this earlier when we were talking.

Kids are going into foster care with more trauma now than before. It’s an outgrowth of partly our kids are suffering more trauma, and partly it’s the good intentions and it works well for most people is that they don’t go into foster care as soon as they used to. There’s a lot more emphasis on trying to do family reunification.

But with the result that when kids finally end up in in foster care, it can be really, really bad. And so they have a lot of complex needs that your average foster family is not experienced or trained to deal with. So we have a lot of well-meaning foster parents who really are good-hearted people and really do want to help the kids, but they just can’t. they just don’t know what to do.

And the agencies don’t, either they don’t have or don’t spend the money on mental health therapy and mental health treatment, which these foster families need. So we really, if we’re going to keep insisting on foster care rather than group homes for kids, then. we really have to do a much better job equipping the foster families to deal with the kids that we have.

And that’s part of the problem that we’re having now with, you hear the term hoteling, which is children without placement. It’s a big problem in every state. And it’s because there are no foster families who are willing or trained or able to take kids with these complex behavioral issues.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, it’s a lot. Now you wrote a book about it. It’s called People Taking Care. But

Debbie Ausburn:
It’s raising

Bob Wheeler:
no

Debbie Ausburn:
other people’s children.

Bob Wheeler:
raising other people’s children. Sorry,

Debbie Ausburn:
Yes,

Bob Wheeler:
I had

Debbie Ausburn:
that’s

Bob Wheeler:
a

Debbie Ausburn:
okay.

Bob Wheeler:
well, yeah. So you wrote a book about it called raising other people’s children. And

Debbie Ausburn:
Yes.

Bob Wheeler:
that’s a great resource working and I want to ask you first of all. Let me just start all that over. I just completely ruined all that.

Debbie Ausburn:
Okay.

Bob Wheeler:
So Debbie, you wrote a book about raising other people’s children

Debbie Ausburn:
Yes.

Bob Wheeler:
to sort of help address this issue or some of the issues for people that have an interest in being of service and in fostering.

Debbie Ausburn:
Yes,

Bob Wheeler:
Can you tell us a little

Debbie Ausburn:
I did.

Bob Wheeler:
bit about the book?

Debbie Ausburn:
Well, it’s my experiences and the lessons that I learned and the handbook that I wish I had when

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
I first started. When I first started, there were all sorts of parenting manuals, but they were all about folks in ordinary biological families and kids without trauma. And I started fostering so long ago, it actually was before we even understood the concept of trauma with kids.

So I talk a lot about how we’re not the people who are supposed to be there, and we have to understand that, that we have to make an unlimited, we have to make a one-way commitment. It’s not an unlimited commitment because you do have to have healthy boundaries in any sort of commitment and relationship. But it’s a one-way commitment.

These kids may reject us. They are going to take their time. They may or may not ever. decide that we’re part of the family. But we have to learn how to be there and available. And, you know, there’s some of my foster kids, former foster kids, that have wandered off, and I don’t know where they are, but I have to let them know that whenever they come back, I’m here.

And so that’s a lot of what I talk about in the book, how to do that, how to logical consequences, which is one of those things that I believe that kids, they have to learn how the world works. And so to the extent that we can engineer safe logical consequences for them, they keep our fingerprints off of them. The faster they’ll learn and the more they’ll be able to do it.

Bob Wheeler:
That’s awesome. And like, it takes a lot to write a book. Like how long did it take you? Did you like, was it just, oh, it just flowed. I did it in five minutes. It was amazing. It was a

Debbie Ausburn:
No,

Bob Wheeler:
struggle.

Debbie Ausburn:
it has parts of it flowed. The stories about my kids flowed. The lessons from that took a little longer. This was a covid project when a good chunk of my clients had shut down. So I didn’t have as much work as I normally do as a lawyer.

Bob Wheeler:
Makes sense, makes sense.

Debbie Ausburn:
The hardest part actually was digging deep and being vulnerable about the mistakes that I made and the ways that it hurt and. It was interesting when I first told my husband I was writing the book, his comment was, well, I don’t want to be in it.

And I said, well, okay. And then he kept sending it back to me saying, no, you’re glossing over. There was one placement that he and I had together that was the most difficult placement I ever had. And he kept saying, no, you’re not talking about the issues that he and I had. and how close our marriage came to breaking up over this child, frankly.

And I finally said to him, well, I thought you didn’t want to be in this. And he said, well, I don’t, but it has to be an honest book. So we have to quit glossing over this. We have to be honest. So that part of delving into, putting into a book things that only he and I had known and dealt with up to that point. That was the most difficult part. And part of it’s my personality. And part of it is, you know, being a lawyer, you never admit you’re wrong. You never admit to failure. You never admit to anything.

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
And anything that happens, it’s always, oh, I meant that. I meant for that to happen.

Bob Wheeler:
It was intentional. Yeah. I, well,

Debbie Ausburn:
It was intentional.

Bob Wheeler:
I’ve got to imagine that’s pretty hard because, um, one you’re going to have second people playing, you know, uh, Monday quarterback going, well,

Debbie Ausburn:
Yeah,

Bob Wheeler:
you could have, you should have done this and

Debbie Ausburn:
coulda,

Bob Wheeler:
that was

Debbie Ausburn:
shoulda,

Bob Wheeler:
so

Debbie Ausburn:
woulda.

Bob Wheeler:
obvious. Yeah. And, and, and so you’ve got people. Replaying how they would have done it. Had they known, of course, after the fact, um, And then, yeah, there’s, and some of those mistakes have impact

Debbie Ausburn:
Mm-hmm.

Bob Wheeler:
on all sides. So, yeah, being vulnerable, a little scary.

Debbie Ausburn:
Oh, it’s very much so. It really is hard.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah,

Debbie Ausburn:
So,

Bob Wheeler:
that’s

Debbie Ausburn:
especially

Bob Wheeler:
well.

Debbie Ausburn:
when, when most of the books out there are, this is how I was such a success. And I, you know, I, raising kids, it’s not like financial issues or,

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
or a recipe or anything else. You know, you can’t say three parts love, two parts patience. bake for six weeks and then you have a great relationship. No, people are flawed and people have agency and we do things on both sides and our kids reject us and we get hurt and we react.

It’s just the way the world works. Nothing is permanent, I’m sorry. Nothing is perfect and every… we all have flaws and so our relationships all have flaws.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. What would be the one thing that if you could change in the foster system, like, and we could fix it today, what would that be? What would the legacy be to the foster system?

Debbie Ausburn:
Mental health care. Take the mental health needs seriously and provide to the kids and the caregivers what they need. Problem is I don’t know where that money will come from, but that would be the one thing that the biggest need right now.

Bob Wheeler:
Absolutely. Well, Debbie, we are at the M&M moment, our sweet spot, money and motivation. So we’re gonna shift the energy again. I wanna ask you if you have a practical financial tip or a piece of wealth wisdom you could share with our listeners, something that’s worked for you, something that’s worked with your foster kids.

Debbie Ausburn:
Well, I would say that the main thing that I have, and it brought me peace of mind, I don’t know how financially sound it was, but was just handing over to the kids a piece of the budget and saying, you are now responsible for this.

And of course the key with that is letting them safely live with their consequences. So for example, I had a foster daughter that I said, fine, here’s. Here’s how much I’m getting paid. I’ll give you, I don’t remember, maybe two thirds of the stipend. And you are now responsible for everything except food and utilities. And she kept buying shoes and I kept pointing out, well, you know, winter’s coming up, you need to buy a coat.

And yeah, yeah. She never saved any money for a coat and she had a great closet full of shoes. Now, I didn’t leave her without a coat. I gave her one of my secondhand coats that she thought was really horrid and

Bob Wheeler:
Thank

Debbie Ausburn:
terrible

Bob Wheeler:
you for watching.

Debbie Ausburn:
and not fashionable and whatever. But you know, I wouldn’t budge because

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Debbie Ausburn:
it was her money. So, and I think the epiphany that I had for your folks is understanding, I had the epiphany that I learned, I love giving kids control of money because that gives me something to do. take away from them.

Bob Wheeler:
Hahaha!

Debbie Ausburn:
So when one of my kids kept missing the bus every morning, I finally said, you know, I love you, but I’m not a taxi service. So it’s gonna be five bucks every time I have to take you to school. And sure enough, you know, I kept taking five bucks every time I did drive

Bob Wheeler:
Thank

Debbie Ausburn:
them to school.

Bob Wheeler:
you.

Debbie Ausburn:
And they quit missing the bus.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Debbie Ausburn:
So it… It gave, using money in that way took away a lot of the arguments because I didn’t have to lecture, I just took the money.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Debbie Ausburn:
And I controlled it and it made me happy to keep my money, so it definitely lowered my emotional

Bob Wheeler:
Absolutely,

Debbie Ausburn:
issues.

Bob Wheeler:
absolutely.

Debbie Ausburn:
So I just, using money as consequences, logical consequences, has just been a big part of It’s just worked well with all my kids.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, that’s great. Well, Debbie, as we’ve been talking and I’ve been listening, one of the things that I was really drawn to is the fact that you consciously knew that this was a one-way relationship, right? That it’s one-sided.

Debbie Ausburn:
Oh yes. Yeah.

Bob Wheeler:
And even in talking about when you’re trying to help them, trying not to leave your fingerprint, right? Bringing in our own stuff. I think that’s so important when we’re trying to help other people, you know, not putting our whole bias into the mix, which is difficult to do, right?

It’s difficult to do, but that piece about realizing that we’re there to help them, they don’t owe us something back. There’s not an obligation on their part. They must, they don’t have to love us perfectly. And even when your stepson was saying, you know, you could live next door, right? And not taking it personal

Debbie Ausburn:
Right.

Bob Wheeler:
and understanding that these kids are in a situation they didn’t choose.

Debbie Ausburn:
Mm-hmm.

Bob Wheeler:
They’re in a system they didn’t choose. And they’re doing the best they can with whatever skill set they have, even if it’s limited. And to be able to hold that. And, and, and just know that you’re doing it for the bigger picture and the greater good. Um, like it takes a level of maturity, I think, cause a lot of people to be able to take a breath and, and really respond versus like, and react.

Debbie Ausburn:
That’s

Bob Wheeler:
And so

Debbie Ausburn:
right.

Bob Wheeler:
I really,

Debbie Ausburn:
That’s right.

Bob Wheeler:
I

Debbie Ausburn:
Well,

Bob Wheeler:
really.

Debbie Ausburn:
it’s that and that’s where the safety net comes in because, you know, I have a lot of other good experienced people that I can call and say, what the heck?

Bob Wheeler:
Right?

Debbie Ausburn:
What is happening here? What am I supposed to be doing? And then the second thing is I get my validation from sources other than my kids. You know,

Bob Wheeler:
Right.

Debbie Ausburn:
I’m always glad when I have a good relationship with my kids. But that’s not my definition of myself or where I get my validation.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah. Well, and the other piece that I want to mention is, you know, when, um, and I, this is my perspective, so, uh, it is not the world’s view. Um, but I think when we’re doing things of purpose, when we’re being of service, like for me, that’s part of our purpose.

That’s part of our mission. as humans and especially humans that have had some means or have gotten to a place of having some means if we didn’t start out with them. And so this piece of service where you’re giving back, there’s a ripple effect for all of that. And you’re paying it forward.

And so I really appreciate. the time and the energy and writing the book and really trying to actually help other people so that they can step in and participate in this very much needed system that’s a bit broken. It’s the best we got and it’s better than nothing, but I really appreciate what you do.

Debbie Ausburn:
Well, thank you. I’m always a little uncomfortable with being treated as though I’m Mother Teresa because I’m not. I’m very flawed. And

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Debbie Ausburn:
at the end of the day, I was transformed by my kids, I think, maybe far more than I changed them.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.

Debbie Ausburn:
But the good news, I always say for folks, is that I’m not. Look, if an empathy-challenged, left-brained lawyer can develop good relationships with kids who didn’t belong in her life, then anybody can do it.

Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think the next title of your book should be I’m Not Mother Teresa.

Debbie Ausburn:
Hahaha! That’s right.

Bob Wheeler:
Right?

Debbie Ausburn:
I never will be and that’s okay.

Bob Wheeler:
That’s right. She served a purpose and thank you.

Debbie Ausburn:
Right.

Bob Wheeler:
And I’m not her. Where can people find you online, social media? Where can people find your book?

Debbie Ausburn:
Well, everything is under Debbie Osborne and probably the easiest place since, Osborne is spelled with an A, which is a little funny for most people. But I have my blog where I talk about all of these things at RaisingOtherPeople’sChildren.blog. And there are links from there to everywhere else.

Bob Wheeler:
Well, awesome. Well, you’ll put all that in the show notes, but we always like to just give it a little bit of voice. I so appreciate you coming on, taking the time to talk about your experiences. And yeah, I wish you the best.

Debbie Ausburn:
Thank you so much, I appreciate it.