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Episode 216

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Episode Description

NEFE in November. Part 4

Have you experienced bias, discrimination, or exclusion by or from organizations, institutions or individuals within the financial services sector? A recent NEFE poll found that minority households are more likely to experience discrimination or feel blocked from the financial sector. It could be having a loan declined or offered less favorable terms than white households. These are just some of the many ways that financial discrimination presents itself. So what can we do about it?

This month we’re celebrating the 30th anniversary of the National Endowment for Financial Education. To honor this special event, I’ve invited some of the team from NEFE to discuss some of the most recent topics and statistics from polls they have conducted that are impacting the personal finance space. We also talk about how financial literacy helped shape their personal lives.

NEFE”S Managing director of marketing and engagement Chelsea Norton, joins me for a second time as she explains what financial discrimination looks like and how to recognize some of the signs. Chelsea and I also discuss what steps you can take if you feel that you have been unfairly treated or discriminated against by a financial institution or service provider.

About Chelsea

Chelsea has a passion for financial capability, which she combines with her expertise in multi-channel marketing to execute customized campaigns that generate results.

Chelsea earned her master’s degree in business administration, with an emphasis in marketing, from the University of Colorado. She received her bachelor’s degree, with honors, in psychology, with an emphasis in business, from Portland State University.

In her spare time, she is an avid athlete who enjoys weightlifting, running, mountain biking and hiking.

To learn more about NEFE’s recent article, New Polling Shows How Race, Income Play a Role in Discriminatory Practices by the Financial Services Sector, visit NEFE.org

Get Social with NEFE

Links Mentioned on This Episode

Episode Transcription

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[00:00:00] Bob Wheeler: Have you experienced bias, discrimination, or exclusion from or by organizations, institutions, or individuals within the financial services sector? A recent NEI poll found that minority households are more likely to experience discrimination or feel blocked from the financial sector. It could be having a loan declined or offered less favorable terms than white households.

These are just some of the many ways that financial discrimination presents itself. So what can we do? NFE is managing Director of Marketing and engagement. Chelsea Norton joins me for a second time as she explains what financial discrimination looks like and how to recognize some of the signs. Chelsea and I also discuss what steps you can take if you feel that you have been unfairly treated or discriminated against by a financial institution or service provider.

This month we’re celebrating the 30th anniversary of the National Endowment from Financial Education. To honor this special event, I’ve invited some of the team from NFI to discuss some of the most recent topics and statistics from polls they have conducted that are impacting [00:01:00] the personal finance space.

We also talk about how financial literacy helps shape their personal lives. I hope you enjoy part four in our five part series of NFI in November with our special guest, Chelsea Norton. I’m Bob Wheeler, and this is Money You should Ask where we explore why we do what we do when it comes to money.

Chelsea Norton MA is N’S managing director of marketing and Engagement, overseeing the strategy for communicating research and thought leadership to audiences by utilizing a customized mix of techniques and channels. Chelsea has a passion for financial capability, which she combines with her expertise in multichannel [00:02:00] marketing to execute, customize campaigns that generate results.

Chelsea earned her master’s degree in business administration with an emphasis in marketing from the University of Colorado. She received her bachelor’s degree with honors in psychology with an emphasis in business from Portland State University. In her spare time, she’s an avid athlete who enjoys weightlifting, running mountain biking, and hiking.

It’s been a while since we’ve had you on the show. Chelsea, it’s so good to have you on again.

[00:02:28] Chelsea Norton: It’s so good to see you. Uh, so great to be here.

[00:02:31] Bob Wheeler: So, you know, it’s November and there’s a poll, it talks about financial discrimination and some findings, like 16% of people felt some discrimination, women more than men.

What is financial discrimination?

[00:02:46] Chelsea Norton: So financial discrimination essentially is the idea that based on some kind of a protected status or some kind of a characteristic, That you did not receive access to financial good services [00:03:00] or, you know, fair treatment in the financial services sector based on those kinda characteristics.

So it could look like a lot of different things, like being refused credit outright. It could also look like just being treated differently. Going into a financial institution or organization and being treated differently from someone that maybe looks different than you or has different characteristics than you.

It’s not always something related to how you look though, you know, it could also be something inside your kind of qualifications or credit file or things like that. So we can talk a little bit more about that. But you know, it could also be just even overhearing. People at the financial organization talking in a way that is biased toward people who are members of a protective class or could be knowing that you qualify for certain services and then being offered services that are not as advantageous for you being offered a higher interest rate than you should have to pay on a credit card or not loan or something like that.

So it can take a lot of different forms, but really what it boils down to is being treated differently cause of [00:04:00] some characteristic that is part of a protected.

[00:04:04] Bob Wheeler: And how are financial discrimination and financial trauma intertwined if at.

[00:04:09] Chelsea Norton: NFI has been exploring this idea of financial trauma through our visiting scholar, Chloe Mackenzie.

So Chloe is a researcher who NFI has been providing a platform for, for her to share some of her work and some of her research. And she has specifically been looking into financial trauma. And I know that you spoken with Billy A. Little bit about financial trauma, but for anybody who’s listening to this podcast and hasn’t heard that, Financial trauma is the response to the cumulative harming of a person’s wealth building capability and their relationship with money.

So it’s basically rooted in the financial system. And this financial system in a way, has historically dehumanized and shamed people based on their race, sometimes based on their gender, their socioeconomic status. And so the idea is, or kind of how I’ve heard it explained, is that if you tell someone they’re bad [00:05:00] at money for long, And especially if you tell them that they’re bad at money because they are a member of a certain group because of their race, because of their gender, because of their income earning level.

If you do that over a prolonged period of time, And that could just be in one person’s lifespan or that could be in generations. You know, there’s a cumulative amount of harm that results and that prevents that person from being able to act as full members of this financial system that we have. So in a way, I would think about financial discrimination is.

One of the things that can result over time in financial trauma in the accumulation of financial trauma. So I really do think that financial discrimination is in a way, a root cause of financial trauma. Let me put it that.

[00:05:47] Bob Wheeler: And I would imagine, and I don’t know this, I’m just trying to connect dots here, but if I’ve experienced financial trauma, which I think a lot of people have, yeah.

And some may not even know it, right? Mm-hmm. , they may just think it’s [00:06:00] part of their personal makeup, but a lot of people experienced financial trauma that may amplify the feeling of discrimination. Because I’ve already had so much trauma that I might be much more sensitive to, okay, wait a minute, this doesn’t feel right.

So I mean, I think they are so very connected because the impact’s still gonna be the same, whether it’s my trauma or me feeling discriminated against. Either way I’m feeling marginalized or left out or less than, and that’s tough cuz money is like so personal and already a vulnerable topic. To then go expose myself to potentially being taken out again.

That’s tough.

[00:06:38] Chelsea Norton: Yeah, absolutely. You know, the sad thing about is if you tell someone they’re bad at something for long enough, they’re gonna come to believe it. And that has really long term kind of widespread impacts. And so if you tell a group of people, for instance, You say in the case of we’ll use black people, for instance, historically deprived of access to money, historically deprived of access to earning [00:07:00] capital and the financial banking system, et cetera.

But if you then say to black people, oh, well you are not as good at managing money. You have these struggles. Even if we say that now they have equal access to a system, but there’s these underlying tones of you can’t do this. You are less than, people are going to automatically start to exclude themselves.

Right? Right. From the fight, from the system. And so that’s the tragic thing, is that if you tell someone they’re bad at something for long enough, they’re not gonna participate. And I do think it’s a shame for.

[00:07:32] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. It’s not a motivator to wanna move towards . Right. When the systems are trying to take you out.

Yeah. Now, in the poll that was recently done, 60% believed that they experienced bias. Women had a higher percentage of feeling discriminated against. Mm-hmm. . Was it based on gender buyers or was it more expansive to race and class?

[00:07:54] Chelsea Norton: So, you know what we looked at for this poll? Essentially what we did is we used the Amer speak Omni.

[00:08:00] That’s the really omnibus panel. That’s the really technical way of saying that. What we did is we worked with a survey company that is designed to provide us research and data that’s representative of the average US household. And so for this survey we surveyed over a thousand people. It was 1,001, and they spanned the demographic categories.

So we had enough people to establish kind of al significance for gender for. For the answers that we were looking for to these questions. So the things that we’ve talked about that we list in our poll findings, for the most part, they are statistically significant or else we say that they’re not. And some of the things that did show significance, that means that it’s reliable, that you can take these results and you can generalize them to the broader population.

So we only surveyed a thousand people. There’s 330 plus million people in the us. This survey was statistically significant enough so that you could say, if you were to survey the full US population, you would find that these results would replicate themselves. Right? And so you’re correct that 16, [00:09:00] only 16% of people, yeah, said that they experienced discrimination or bias in the financial services sector.

So you’re like, oh, well that’s only 16%. So, That’s actually not the big a number, but when you look at who responded and said that they did experience bias, you found that of the people surveyed, 31% of the women said that they experienced discrimination and bias because of their gender. So then you’re talking about, okay, of this whole thousand people, of the women who responded 30%, a third of women, so that they’ve experienced discrimination.

So then you’re really talking about something that hits. That’s something that you can rely on, that a third of women in the American financial system will have said that they’ve experienced bias and discrimination based on their gender.

[00:09:46] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. And you can say 16 percent’s not that much, but when you look at a large population like the us, that’s a large amount of people being excluded.

Yeah, absolutely. And now some people would say we’re trying to make things more equal, but if we’re trying to make things not [00:10:00] necessarily more equal, but more equitable, that’s an important piece of information because that’s 16% of the population that doesn’t feel that warm. Or the wide welcome. That’s correct.

And so I’m wondering if you personally have experienced financial discrimination and what was that like if you did? I definitely

[00:10:20] Chelsea Norton: feel very fortunate in a lot of ways because I am a white person. I grew up in a fairly middle class family with my parents. We started out, not middle class, but my parents worked really hard and were also given some advantages in their.

That enabled them to be able to earn a really good income. And so there were certain barriers that were not present for me, but at the same time, there were some interesting things that happened in my life that definitely I felt like introduced that kind of bias. And I will say one of the things that I found really interesting in my life was that I was raised in a household that was religious, that had some very traditional values.

[00:11:00] And among those values, one of them, The importance of a male or the man kind of being a head of household and a woman being home, running the house, but not necessarily earning an income, and also not necessarily having as much of a say in the spending of the money. Now, that’s not to say that that’s exactly what my household was like.

I actually do think that my parents specifically tried to involve their daughters a little bit more in understanding the finances and the financial situation at home. But in the broader community that I was raised in, that was something that was taught as kind of a, you know, those are the roles that you should.

Plan to subscribe to. And it was really interesting because I definitely felt that there were in my friends’ families and as I got older and became an adult, noticed that there were, in a lot of cases, women who did not understand where the money was coming from and where it was going and did not have earning potential.

And sometimes were worried about what happens if [00:12:00] this marriage falls apart and I don’t know how to make a living and I don’t know how to pay the. So I would say more so than I’ve experienced it myself directly, because I fortunately have had some advantages in my life, but I’ve seen the bias. I have seen the kind of assignment of roles that basically set up people to be excluded and women to be excluded from the financial system.

And even when it’s opted into, even when it’s. Established as a kind of a choice. It can be a really slippery slope because if you need to participate, if you find yourself in a position where you need to participate in the financial system in the future, it can be really hard to do that if you have been excluded in the past.

[00:12:40] Bob Wheeler: Yeah, and I think it’s so important. Women, if you’re listening, financial literacy is so important. Women live longer than men, and statistics show that women end up in a higher rate of poverty when they get older. And so it’s so important, even more important for women to really learn about finances because I [00:13:00] have clients who, the husband died, the wife knows where nothing.

And they’re left at a real disadvantage. So financial literacy is so important for everyone. Now I wanna ask you, class-wise, adults. So going into class that earn less than 30,000, were more likely to answer yes than those who make more than 60. Mm-hmm. , can you speak to class and financial discrimination, how that intersects?

Yeah,

[00:13:28] Chelsea Norton: and that’s really interesting actually. It sounds kinda strange when you talk about the data and we say less than 30,000 or more than 60,000, but one of the reasons that we say that is because there wasn’t as much significance for the group between 30 and 60,000. But one thing that we really saw is that the differences were very stark when a household income was less than 30,000.

And what we saw was that it wasn’t just the income that ended up being the factor that people felt discriminated. But it was almost like the income in a way, is this catalyzer [00:14:00] that if the household income was less than 30,000 people reported discrimination along a whole bunch of other different kinds of characteristics.

Things ranging from education to gender, to race to sexual identity. So you know what’s really interesting about that is that it seems like for people who are already fragile, From the perspective of having low income, they are also subject more often to discrimination based on other factors. So that is something to be just very aware of, that this is a group of people who are already at risk and they are also reporting higher rates of discrimination on other factors.

[00:14:42] Bob Wheeler: Yeah, it’s so interesting. I know that one of the national banks just came out with a program to help minorities in a couple of cities, and the pessimistic side of me said, what’s their angle, right? Mm-hmm. , are they really doing this to help the community? Because a lot of [00:15:00] people in lower economic classes, Get stuck with higher rates, less than ideal terms.

And so there’s a part of me that, you know, not a lot of people are looking out for those folks and they’re often in survival mode. And so it just makes it really tough to get outta that situation because I can’t say it’s all mindset. Certainly there are outside factors that are working against.

[00:15:25] Chelsea Norton: Right.

And what’s interesting about this as well is this is something that we’ve heard spoken of a lot from people who are members of communities where they have less access to high quality financial services. Oftentimes we will see organizations, financial institutions coming in and offering products and services, and they’re saying, well, we’ve come up with this thing and this is a great thing for you.

And one anecdote that I heard not too long ago was that there was this big bank who shall not be named, who came into this community, was like, okay, well we’re gonna offer. Loans to small businesses in the community, but it was a little bit insidious because they were offering these [00:16:00] loans at higher rates.

And the rates that they were offering. Mm-hmm. create more financial fragility in a person that needs that money. And so people that I’m speaking to about this, they really said what this organization, what this institution did not do, was they did not build trust in the community. And they did not listen to the community about what the people in the community needed.

And I think that’s what’s really important. Like if we are talking about addressing bias and discrimination, it doesn’t mean. Organizations or people need to SW in and be a savior, right? Nobody needs that, right? What these communities need is for people to listen to them, to provide them with the resources that they need, and to become a trustworthy ally as opposed to somebody who just has the solutions, especially if the angle there is to make a buck off of this community that they maybe don’t have access to or have not had access to otherwise.

So I think it’s really important to be mindful. How sometimes things that can be disguised as being helpful really are [00:17:00] actually not that helpful. And I think that the thing we’re missing there is really listening. Yeah. And providing solutions based on direct knowledge of

[00:17:07] Bob Wheeler: what the community needs. Yes.

And it’s so interesting because I think maybe it’s universal, but definitely as Americans we often think we have the right answers cuz it worked for me, so it’s gonna work for you. So you just sit down and you actually listen to me and I’ll tell you how it’s gonna be. And I believe we do need to do a lot more listening, active listening.

Mm-hmm. and actually taking in the information. Yeah.

[00:17:35] Chelsea Norton: You know, this is one thing that NFI has been really thinking about as well. So there we were talking about listening to people within the community about potential products or services that could be part of the solution. But another thing that we have found, especially with regard to data on financial literacy, is that underrepresented populations, Are underrepresented in the data too.

So part of the problem that we’re running into is that we don’t know some of [00:18:00] what the issues are. We don’t fully understand them because we are under sampling the populations that we need to hear from. So that’s one of the things that we’re trying to focus on as an organization that funds research and conducts some of our own research, is really trying to include that sample or even over sample in that population to try and make up for some of the gaps in the.

That we just don’t have, because again, if we don’t understand, if we are not listening, if we’re not listening directly, we’re not listening through the research, then we can’t understand what the potential solutions.

[00:18:27] Bob Wheeler: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I found interesting is that a lot of people that had felt the discrimination also had lack of access to internet.

Mm-hmm. , which is something that a lot of us take for granted. But if you can’t even look up the stuff on your own, there’s gonna be a bias.

[00:18:46] Chelsea Norton: Right. Absolutely. I mean, that’s the thing is it is a reality. I think that many of us take for granted that everybody has access to the same kinds of tools. It’s not that it’s not the case.

And so we do [00:19:00] need to think about like, you know, it’s been amazing to see especially, and I would say the last 10 years or so, all these awesome apps coming into the market that offer people better ways to invest access into the crypto market, better savings vehicles. All those kinds of things, all through this really cool hand handed app on your phone.

But if you don’t have the ability to access that, it’s not gonna be helpful for you. So we do have to make sure that we’re addressing the needs of all populations, not just the populations who happen to have access to a smart, who have really nice high speed internet. Right?

[00:19:32] Bob Wheeler: Absolutely. What can people do if they feel like they’ve been discriminated?

[00:19:38] Chelsea Norton: So there are organizations that are on the look for this. There are organizations that are designed to try and help protect you, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or cfpb. That is one of them. And they do have a page on their website that specifically provides some help and resources. So the first thing to know is we talked a little bit about this.

Previously is to really understand [00:20:00] what the warning signs are for discrimination or bias. So if you go in and you apply for credit and you feel that you should qualify and you’re denied credit, or you feel like you should qualify for a higher rate than you’re offered, there is a possibility there, especially if you think it was because of your gender, because of your sexual orientation, because of your race, because of the income that you make.

You know, if you otherwise qualify for something. Now I’m not. Obviously you can’t make it below a certain income threshold and request a certain amount of money. But if all other factors, if you meet the requirements, then you should be offered the same product as somebody else who qualifies. And if you feel like you were not, that’s something to look out for.

So what you can do, there’s a couple of things you can do. You can contact your state’s attorney’s general office. You can find your state’s attorney general. There’s a website, www.aa.org. You can find your attorney general by going to that site and get contact with them. Also, it’s important to have legal representation in these cases, and so on the CFBs website, [00:21:00] they also do offer kind of a finder by state that gives you whatever the options are for pursuing a legal recourse in the state that you’re located.

I think one of the things that I would encourage, and it’s hard, one of the things that I don’t wanna do here is say that I’m putting the onus on the person who feels like they’ve been discriminated against, right? Because it is so difficult when you’ve already felt like you’ve been pushed out to then say, it’s your responsibility to make sure that you report this so that we can get a handle on it.

Right? I understand that that’s a really difficult position to be in. Right? And it’s our responsibility as voters, as people that have more advantages to try and make change in the financial. From our perspective for things that we can do. But then if a person feels they have been discriminated against, they also have the opportunity to pursue legal action.

And they should, because you know, it shouldn’t be allowed. It shouldn’t be okay to be denied access to a system, and then just to feel like you’ve run out of options. That’s the last thing that we want. So I would say from both [00:22:00] angles, both for a person who has been discriminated against, but also for those of us who maybe feel like, at least in this.

We have more say, power, if you will, to utilize that power for good and try and impact change in the financial system on our end as much as

[00:22:14] Bob Wheeler: we. Yeah, and I think it is important to say it’s not on the people out there who feel the discrimination that it’s all their job to do everything, but if you’re out there feeling discriminated against, there’s no shame in that because it happens to a lot of people and there are lots of allies out there willing to help.

So reach out, ask for help, and let people accompany you so that you can actually. Have a wider welcome because there are a lot of people out there that will help advocate and support people feeling discriminated against.

[00:22:46] Chelsea Norton: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:22:51] Bob Wheeler: With Chelsea, we are at the Fast five, and you know how this goes. So the Fast Five is brought to you by nfi, the National Endowment [00:23:00] for Financial Education, which champions effective financial education. They are the independent centralizing voice, providing leadership, research, and collaboration to advance financial wellbeing.

NFI envisions a nation where everyone has the knowledge, confidence, and opportunity to live their best financial lives. So Chelsea, down and dirty. What was your first job? Oh

[00:23:22] Chelsea Norton: man. Okay. Well, I don’t know if it counts, so if it counts. Before I was like legally allowed to work, I was like a babysitter and a nanny and like I had this nanny gig one summer where I was a nanny.

From 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM all summer. But if that doesn’t count, because technically like I didn’t fill out any of the paperwork, I was just some lady that paid me under the table. Then my first actual like real job was at Burger King and I was, I was a cashier in the drive through at my local Burger King

[00:23:52] Bob Wheeler: You gotta have it your way. Gotta have it your way.

Who is better with money? You or your

[00:23:58] Chelsea Norton: friends? [00:24:00] Oh, I think I. For sure. And I think that’s just because I really kind of feel this obligation to like practice what I preach, I would say. So everybody knows me as the person that works for the National Endowment for Financial Education. And so I do feel a little bit like I’m in the spotlight, like people are kind of looking to me to be like, How is she managing this?

What is she doing? Like I get the investment questions all the time. So I would say not so much that I’m just naturally good at things is that I feel like all this peer pressure to just like be good at things because that’s my job. Just like if one of my friends is a doctor and somebody like whatever falls and hurts themselves, they’re gonna ask the doctor, right?

For help. So I’m the money version of the doctor friend .

[00:24:44] Bob Wheeler: Now you’re an avid athlete. What’s your most expensive piece of.

[00:24:49] Chelsea Norton: Oh man, it hurts to admit this is like totally normal for people that live where I live in Colorado. So don’t freak out when I say this, but my most expensive piece [00:25:00] of equipment is my mountain bike and it definitely costs more than my car at the time that I bought it.

I consider it a long-term investment, and you definitely want a very good mountain bike if you’re gonna be. Mountain biking is some of the hills that I bike in because it can make the difference between like staying on the bike or like having to go get stitches. So I do own an expensive mountain bike and it’s locked away very safely so that it cannot be stolen

[00:25:26] Bob Wheeler: Wow, that’s awesome. I buy the cheapest bikes because I’m in LA and they’re gonna get taken .

[00:25:34] Chelsea Norton: Oh my gosh. No, I totally understand that. We have this crazy like, I dunno, who doesn’t have like a crazy black market for stolen bikes anymore in their city? It seems like it’s everywhere.

[00:25:44] Bob Wheeler: Crazy . So you recently spent time in Spain.

What’s the most expensive place you’ve traveled to?

[00:25:54] Chelsea Norton: Oh man. Honestly, I guess we talked a little bit about this [00:26:00] previously before we got on to the recording today. You mentioned a little bit about how you like to travel to areas that are maybe not as economically well to do as the us. Yeah. I’ve spent a lot of time myself traveling to places that are, I would say like economically developing, I suppose is the term that you would use.

But yeah, I did travel to Europe maybe like eight to 10 years ago, and I. Probably hands down, the most expensive place that I traveled was France. So it was definitely at a time, like right now, if anybody, people following the news, you understand that the pound, I’m in Great Britain at the moment and the pound is not having its best moment in times.

So my US dollar is quite strong at the moment, but typically currency over here. It’s a little bit stronger than the US dollar, and so it’s more expensive to travel here for sure. Like I remember wanting to buy like a vodka soda in France one time, and I think it was like $22, which is insane. And [00:27:00] I’m sure they were taking advantage of the American tourists.

But yeah, I definitely remember that as being like the most expensive trip. And I would highly encourage asking before actually ordering and receiving the drink, what the price would be. .

[00:27:16] Bob Wheeler: That is a good piece of advice when you are traveling. Find out the cost before you commit. You could be looking at some jail time, when you can’t pay.

What’s the least expensive thing that you own but rely on on a daily basis.

[00:27:31] Chelsea Norton: Well, all right. Let’s put it this way. I am not the technological early adopter, so I usually buy technology and then hang onto it forever, like until it just. Dies or becomes like a historical artifact. Like my apps don’t work on it anymore because it’s so old.

So I have an extremely old MacBook computer that is my like personal computer. And it’s so old now, I [00:28:00] can’t even play any of my video games on it anymore. And it can’t even be updated to the newest update. I mean, I think it’s like 12 years old at this point, but I need it every day. Like that’s how I do my personal budgeting and like when I’m spending time doing.

Not work related on a computer. So yes, daily use, but it is like at some point before too long it is just not gonna turn on. And I’m just gonna be okay with that because I realized that I should have upgraded my computer like several years ago. ,

[00:28:27] Bob Wheeler: I feel your pain. I feel like if I bought a computer 35 years ago, it should still be good today, but nobody’s with me on that.

They’re like, Bob, let it go. Let it go. Buy a new one. I hold on forever.

So we are at the sweet spot, the m and m moment, money and motivation. Do you have a practical financial tip or a piece of wealth wisdom you could share with our listeners? Something that works for you, like asking the price of a drink when you’re on travel ?

[00:28:59] Chelsea Norton: Well, I guess I [00:29:00] will stick with the travel theme.

One of the things that I would heavily advocate for is that if you are gonna be traveling anywhere, and you know, it can be even within the country, it doesn’t have to be out of the country, but I’ve found this advantageous in both cases to learn and utilize the public transit system as much as you can if it’s available.

Because a lot of times, especially in Europe, but I’ve actually found this a lot when I’ve traveled for business in the us, oftentimes the public transit system will get you where you need to go. Much less expensive than taking an Uber or a Lyft everywhere. And usually, I mean, I am not like the most technologically savvy person out there, and most of the time I can figure it out.

So I would highly encourage, like if you’re gonna be traveling, just take a few minutes and look into it and see if there are options out there for you, rather than just being like, okay, I guess I’m just gonna need to rent a car, or I guess I’m just gonna need to take an Uber everywhere. A lot of times that actually isn’t the case.

So you can save a lot of money on your trip by just using the public transit system, and you can use that money for other things like fun experiences, tours, or you know, a [00:30:00] nice dinner or something

[00:30:00] Bob Wheeler: like that. That’s great. And for people like me who are scared sometimes to do that stuff, cuz I think I’ll get on the wrong train cuz in the past people would say, get off at this station, and I’m like, no, they’re wrong.

And they were right. But lots of people will help you. Even in foreign languages. I’ve had lots of people help me and I ask like 20 times before I step on a train or a bus and then I asked the bus driver and you save a lot of money, so push through the fear. If you’re like me, who just gets nervous that you’re in a foreign country, it’s all good.

People will help. Absolutely.

[00:30:31] Chelsea Norton: Yeah. 97% of people are good people who just wanna help you. So I definitely find that it’s a lot easier if you look like a very nice and lost tourist. A lot of people will stop and help you out. So yeah, don’t be afraid. And besides if you miss it and you go to the wrong stop, which I have totally done before, it’s a new adventure.

[00:30:51] Bob Wheeler: I love it. I love it. Well, Chelsea, where can people find out more about n.

[00:30:57] Chelsea Norton: So we have a website, [00:31:00] www.nfe.org. That’s N as in Nancy, E as in Edward, F as in Frank, E as in edward.org. And we talked about some of the recent research in financial discrimination today. If you go to nfe.org/research, you can find more information about this poll and others that we’ve released.

We’ve also got a lot of other cool things on our website about other projects and initiatives that we’re working on. So check us out there. You can also follow us on Twitter. It’s at ncore, so the little underline or so you can find us there and should be pretty easy to figure out which nfe we are on Twitter, we’re the ones with the orange logo.

[00:31:39] Bob Wheeler: Well, perfect. We’ll have all that in the show notes. I so appreciate what NFI is doing and helping to shed information and a light on a lot of things that people were not aware of around financial literacy and so really appreciate the hard work and celebrating 30 years. So thank you so much and I look forward to more convers.

[00:31:59] Chelsea Norton: [00:32:00] And thank you so much, Bob. It’s been so awesome to just partner with you and have you help us get the word out and shed light on some of these issues and some of the research that’s important. I mean, we’re a nonprofit. We can’t do it without the support of people like you. So thank you. Thank you so much, and looking forward to working with you in the future.

It’s always a good time. Absolutely.

[00:32:26] Bob Wheeler: We hope you enjoyed this episode. Did you learn something new about your relationship to money today? Maybe you have a friend who has some financial blocks or beliefs that are holding them back. Please share this podcast so they too can get off the rollercoaster Ride of Financial Fears and journey towards financial.

To learn how to have a healthy relationship with money, visit the money nerve.com. That’s nerve not nerd. We’ll be back next week with another perspective on money and the emotions that bind us.[00:33:00]

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