Financial Shame: You’re Not Alone. Dr. Billy Hensley

[00:00:00] Bob Wheeler: Financial shame is one of the most debilitating and personal forms of pressure that an individual can feel. It can prevent people from making critical decisions about their financial future, which leaves them feeling hopeless about their ability to ever improve their situation. While there are certainly personal choices that can contribute to financial shame, it’s important to remember that there are also outside forces at.

For example, the way that financial institutions are structured creates a built in disadvantage for consumers. These companies invest millions of dollars to develop systems that ensure profits continue to flow in ways that best serve them. As a result, people who are struggling to make ends meet often find themselves up against an insurmountable force.

By taking the time to learn about the external factors that may be outside of your control, you can begin to make choices that best serve. You don’t have to like the game, but if you don’t know the rules, you certainly won’t be able to play the game to your advantage. This month, we’re celebrating [00:01:00] the 30th anniversary of the National Endowment for Financial Education, NEFE Champions Effective Financial Education.

In honor of NEFE’s, big Milestone. I’ve invited some of the staff from NEFE to discuss some of the most recent topics and statistics from polls they have conducted that are impacting the personal finance. We’ll also talk about how financial literacy helps shape their personal lives, both the good times as well as the tough moments.

In the fifth and final part of our NEFE in November series, I welcome back President and CEO of NEFE, Dr. Billy Hensley, to discuss discrimination in the personal finance space and how NEFE is proactively shining and much needed light on fin lit and financial education. To learn more about Nephi’s article, understanding Racial Trauma’s, impact on Financial Literacy, visit NEFE.org or click on the link in the show notes.

I’m Bob Wheeler and this is Money You Should Ask, where we explore why we do [00:02:00] what we do when it comes to money.

Billy J. Hensley PhD is President and CEO of the National Endowment from Financial Education. Since his appointment in 2018, Dr. Billy has led NEFE through the development and execution of its first strategic plan, sharpening the organization’s mission, vision, and core values, and cultivating broader transparency and effecti.

He is charging the organization to redefine financial education through more focused philanthropy, research and collaboration. Welcome back to the show, Billy. It’s good to have you on Again. I’m glad to be back. This isn’t your first rodeo [00:03:00] with us, but we know you serve as the CEO and president of NEFE, the National Endowment for Financial Education.

For those who don’t know what NEFE is, can you tell us a little bit about NEFE and how its research is affecting the study of financial?

[00:03:15] Dr. Billy Hensley: Yeah, so NEFE is an operating foundation. We’re headquartered in Denver. We work nationally, you know, our polls, things like that. What we’re trying to do is understand and give more voice and more insight to multiple populations.

You know, the thing about survey data is you lose a lot when you average, meaning you survey a million people, the average is what’s gonna be the headline or the percent, but there may. In that million people, there may be a hundred thousand people who are experiencing something very vividly or negatively.

And what we are trying to do is get to some of those populations over, sample those if you will, or try to better understand those, uh, in their context so that we can’t just. [00:04:00] Cater to the average that people from all different walks of life and backgrounds can be best served when it comes to financial education programming, financial literacy initiatives, and then financial wellbeing

[00:04:11] Bob Wheeler: in general.

Yeah, so it sort of sounds like a wider welcome and more inclusion if you’re. Focusing a little bit of the folks on the fringe.

[00:04:20] Dr. Billy Hensley: That’s right. Because as we say at NEFE, if financial education doesn’t work for everyone, it doesn’t work. And so we’re trying to better understand the experience of, uh, multiple populations, whether that be tied to age, race, income level, socioeconomic status, geography.

Sexual orientation and so

[00:04:37] Bob Wheeler: forth. And do you think financial trauma is something that affects all of us? Like how can we adjust the education of our children and make sure they don’t experience the same things that we do? Well, ,

[00:04:50] Dr. Billy Hensley: you remember that old ad? Not your father’s also mobile bill. I dunno if you ever, a lot of your listeners probably won’t remember that.

I remember it. , what they were [00:05:00] saying is that we’ve tried to update and modernize how we do business here, you know? Mm-hmm. , we’re trying to give, um, better understanding change to product, if you will. For years, people looked at financial education in general as a one size fits all topic. The voice of presenter, the voice of the curriculum writer, the voice of teacher.

Hey, it worked for me. It should work for you without sort of looking at the experience of people and how they approach the topic. So yes, I think everyone has some version of a financial trauma. I think particular populations and people from different backgrounds experience it more often. And it’s deeper rooted and there’s a lot more obstacle tied to it.

So it’s not just shame and the finger pointing and look at you. You made all the wrong decisions and you did everything wrong, and let’s harp on what all you did wrong. Uh, instead of saying, you know, how do we move forward from [00:06:00] here? How do, can the word, how can you understand the context and begin to try to hopeful.

Heal from some of that trauma so that you can see that financial education and personal finance in general is something for you and meant to help you grow and help you sort of have agency in your life.

[00:06:19] Bob Wheeler: When you’re talking about personal finances, it’s very personal, it’s very vulnerable, and I would imagine as you’re looking at all this stuff, trust must play into the equation if we’re gonna move this forward.

[00:06:33] Dr. Billy Hensley: Right. Well, speaking of trust, you know, go into a personal finance course or a class or a workshop, or you maybe a way to try to find some tips and you’re, you’re coming in with that because you want to learn, you want to be better, you want to improve, you want to navigate the system. You wanna save money, you wanna make money.

You know, there’s a lot of reasons for that, but it’s all coming from a place of improvement, empowerment, to try to better your life, if you will. Mm-hmm. . But if your experience with [00:07:00] that is, Well, you’re poor. It’s your fault. You made all the wrong decisions without really understanding the context. Or had you bounced another check or not that people really write checks anymore, I still do, but , I write a few release two to three a month, uh, or you over dream or you have a late fee.

You know what? The average consumer and what’s not really covered in financial education courses is. Financial institutions are meant to be profit driven. They’re meant to make money. Even the non-profit financial institutions are trying to stay open so they right produce revenue, as much revenue as possible.

And so what we don’t say in financial education is that maybe you’re not really called that bad with money. Maybe you as an individual and you as a person who maybe is making a lower income or you haven’t climbed up to the career ladder. You don’t have enough resources to avoid that paycheck to paycheck space.

And what we don’t say in personal finance and financial education is [00:08:00] that financial institutions spend hundreds of millions of dollars to create algorithms that hold pending purchases. To the point of that they approve right at the point where you just happen to be historically every month. That’s your lowest balance.

So, And they know, Hey, that’s a late fee, that’s an overdraft fee. Wow. And we don’t say 40% of the profits of financial institutions at large are from those two things alone. And so there’s a lot of incentives for computer algorithms, for financial institutions to actually process and reorder. Your purchase is in a way that maybe helps n not you.

If we start to look at financial education from that point of view of like, this happens, so what are ways we can get over this, or what are ways that we can understand going into it that, yeah, you’ve made financial mistakes. Yeah, you make poor decisions, but it’s not [00:09:00] just your decisions. There’s a lot of money to be made on that, and there’s a lot.

Business practices that actually promote that in a way that you’re not even aware of. So when people understand that, and when people like me, you know, I took out student loans, I went to a private college, I graduated with student debt, and you know, we don’t talk enough about college affordability, I don’t think, but Right.

Instead of trying to understand that that was actually an opportunity for me that that small private education is what helped me get all these soft skills that I. I got to experience lots of things. I got all the encouragement that I needed to be able to be successful and launch. And so instead of going into financial education with the finger pointing and the guilt, and the, oh, you did everything wrong and how we’re gonna dig you out of this, and just saying, how do we move forward?

You know, that was a priority that actually helped you graduate and graduate on time. You may have had some debt. You gained a lot of other skills that you could refine, that you may have lost if you’d gone to a huge institution that was [00:10:00] quote subsidized. That’s what I mean when I say let’s get voice to multiple people.

Let’s take the shame out of thin ed and let’s, let’s look at the big picture. Not just say, Hey, you’re poor. It’s all your fault. How about as a society, Americans are struggling. Two-thirds of us live paycheck to paycheck. Let’s dig into why that is for you in particular, and let’s look at all the reasons for that.

Not. The individual decisions you

[00:10:23] Bob Wheeler: made for that. Absolutely. And to that point, NEFE did a poll, and the top factors among those who feel like they’ve experienced discrimination or felt like they’re blocked from engaging in financial services or products was age 48%. Yeah. Amount of wealth assets, 37%.

Ethnicity, 37%, race 27%. Gender identity expression 23%, and education 23%. I mean, those, those seem like pretty high numbers, but how can regular everyday people interpret these numbers to empower them to bring [00:11:00] about change in their own lives?

[00:11:02] Dr. Billy Hensley: Well, I, I think it’s sort of examining your own experience and not carry that burden that you are bad with money.

Maybe you have made some bad decisions. We, god knows I have , but you know, it’s about saying we’ve all made bad decisions. Life is very expensive. There’s a lot of companies, well, people and companies I should say, that are trying to get every dollar you have. Right. And sometimes the way they do, It’s definitely not optimal for you in your bottom line.

And so use it as a motivation to say, Hey, this organization or this bank or this uh, store limited me. This financial planner wouldn’t listen. You know, whatever that reason is that you felt unheard. Whether it’s you went into the bank and you were embarrassed cuz you only had $118 or you only had $23. I was there plenty of times, especially in our twenties.

Yeah. And you feel judged and you feel ashamed by. Look at it as we [00:12:00] all come from that place and we all start at that place and we all get there, you know, what is it? We have multiple disruptions. You’re, you’re at like a 98% likelihood. I can’t remember exactly the statistic of having at least 10% income disruption multiple times in your career.

Wow. Laid off. You know, it’s gonna happen to a solve. We’re all might be flush one minute and strapped to the next. This is actually a very common thing, uh, about uh, being an American citizen or, or a person that’s trying to make their way in America. So we’ve all been at that place. We’ve all felt, oh, they’re not gonna listen to me cuz I’m young or they’re not gonna listen to me because I’m old or older or they don’t appreciate my experience, or I’m not educated enough, or I don’t understand all this jargon you’re using.

Cause we all know jargon. Usually used to exclude and confuse and confuse. And we think everyone understands the words we use. I mean, we do it. I do it every day. I think everyone knows exactly everything I’m saying and talking about, and [00:13:00] then I get that polite, uh, I have no idea what you just said. Moment.

Right. And I would love every consumer to say, I don’t understand what you just is flameless, you know, I’d like to sort of reframe this in a different. Because sometimes this discrimination or this bias may be unconscious by the person in the institution. The institution may have been doing it, quote, always done it this way, and maybe they’re not aware that the way they’re doing business makes you feel this way.

You know, give voice to yourself. , you can do that through online reviews. You don’t have to be confrontational face to face. That’s not your thing. I don’t like confrontational. I don’t think a lot of people do really. But use your voice online and say, or send an email to the president of the, of the bank or the owner of the shop and just make that clear that this is how you felt.

I mean, the fact that 67% of non-Hispanic blacks and 54% of Hispanic. Have reported negative experiences. So when you look at that, you know, is it not the same service? I mean, I’m gay, I’m [00:14:00] clearly gay. I’ve walked into places with my husband before and I’ve had clerks turn around and go to the back cause I didn’t wanna serve and stay back there.

Wow. You know? And then another worker kind of noticed it and sort of came over. I mean, I’ve experienced that many times in places and it makes you not even wanna, you know, do business there. Then you have all the feelings that go. But I just say, it happens to a lot of us. You’re not alone. Uh, and let’s use our voice to say, do better.

If you want my business, you’re gonna have to do better. And we do have choices as consumers

[00:14:31] Bob Wheeler: usually. Yeah. And so there is discrimination out there and people experience it using their voices one way, but how are some other ways that people can. Help create or find a safe space, a financial space, because you can give your voice or say, I’m not gonna come back to business.

But then how do you find those safe? Havens the places that will welcome you in and actually hear you

[00:14:56] Dr. Billy Hensley: well. You know, look for discrimination [00:15:00] statements, you know, that we don’t discriminate based on. Look at what they list. It matters what they list. At least to me, it matters. Mm-hmm. . See how they do business.

See how they respond to, you know, black History Month. See how they respond to Hispanic Heritage Month. An Asian American Pacific Islander month. Look at what they do for pride. Look at what they do. Retirement awareness suite planning. Look at what they do for college students. See how they serve particular communities.

See where their, where their locations are, and look at it that way because you can find, you know, your current institution may not be serving you well, but that doesn’t mean that an institution down the street wouldn’t serve you better. Yeah. See who’s behind the counter. See who’s present. See who they’re hiring.

you know, because if you feel seen, yeah, it may make you feel better. You know, if you see an ad with, with two women holding hands and you feel like you can’t be yourself at your other institution, and then you see, you know, see how they’re representing their work and how they’re embodying those values.

There’s also a lot [00:16:00] of really good bloggers that talk about this topic in particular, I think a discriminatory industry, uh, organization, I should say, probably. Funding Black Lives and Money type podcasts, for example. Right. Oh, see that answers that. And give them your business and, and look at it that way.

And I think those visual markers matter. They do to me. Yeah. I think they matter to a lot of people, whether they’re, you’re conscious of them or not. When you see that you feel, you feel represented, you feel heard. So I would suggest looking it that way as well. What we’re trying to do is make those institutions who maybe aren’t aware of their own bias aware, that’s why we do these surveys.

You know, we want to do the survey and get the data and then promote it. So hopefully organizations can do better. Cause I think a lot of institutions do want to do better. Yeah. In terms of who they’re serving, you know, they want, I would assume they want as many customers as possible. For sure. That’s the point, right?

If they know about [00:17:00] this, maybe it makes them look back and. If that’s us, we wanna see how can we do better. And so that’s the role we’re trying to play, is to shed light on this, to bring awareness to this because money is not a value free thing. Uh, your relationship with money is not value free. It’s not a subjective science.

It is value driven. It’s felt, we all have some version of trauma. We all have joy and happiness tied to it. And so that’s how you bring yourself to it. And if your experiences are largely. Then you’re gonna try to resist it. Maybe you don’t even wanna try to learn more because you’re quote, not a money person, but we’re all money people.

We all have to use it. So let’s you know, let’s try to get as many voices prison as

[00:17:41] Bob Wheeler: possible. Absolutely. So look for folks that are walking the talk and encourage those that aren’t to start walking . That’s

[00:17:49] Dr. Billy Hensley: right. And talking. That’s right. Yeah. I used too many words to say that. You said it Much better than that.

Did

[00:17:56] Bob Wheeler: now NEFE. Recently Leonard’s voice to Chloe McKinzie, the [00:18:00] founder of Black Fem. In her piece for Nehi, she notes that even after slavery was abolished, there were laws put in place limiting certain people from fully participating in the economy. She also notes that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Often referenced that freedom also meant the ability to determine our own economic destiny.

[00:18:20] Dr. Billy Hensley: Yeah, I mean, Powerful writer. Mm-hmm. , one of our staff members actually found her some of her writing and just fell in love with what she was saying. And she’s written some things that I, that I felt, I personally feel very seen by. Mm-hmm. and heard by and what she’s doing. You know, she’s the one that actually I learned those statistics about.

So profits of banking and sort of what that means and the algorithms that are designed. Promote Overdrawing and so forth. I actually learned that from her. She’s got her start on Wall Street as an investment banker, I think is how she started, and then she stopped seeing that the system of sort of blame like, Hey, you’re poor and it’s your fault.

[00:19:00] Without this full understanding of why entire regions, entire populations, entire races of people have less money and less wealth in this rich country, we. There are reasons for it. So less understanding. And so that’s what I appreciate about her. And you know, we brought her in as a visiting scholar and she wrote a piece about the financial trauma and what she was feeling as a new mom.

You know, she just had a baby back in the spring. She wrote about that. And that was beautifully written, and I’m sure many moms felt heard and seen in that piece. And then this other piece about looking at, well, who doesn’t think financial education is a good idea? Let’s talk to ’em and see what they. And it’s, it’s cause of these financial traumas.

It’s because of the shame. It’s because of the way it’s been delivered historically. Um, this sense of like power and blame and you’re poor, but you’ve not really truly been given the same opportunity. So how can you say that financial education [00:20:00] has been totally fair when you’re using that as a means to financial success when people can’t even fully participate in the economy and when?

Generations of people not being able to participate in the economy. I’ve talked to you about this before about being an Appalachian and you know, multiple generations of my ancestors were not paid money. They were paid script to use something that the company owned to give money right back to the company.

So how can you build wealth? How can you own property? How can you save for the future when you’re not even. And so when you take multiple generations, like African Americans, hundreds of years without being able to build well, and then you limit their participation in the economy. When people say that a lot of those laws and so forth change 30, 40, 50 years ago, or access or equal opportunity, but when you’re so far behind already and then you still are facing discrimination, it’s very clear in the survey that we did [00:21:00] when you’re looking at 67.

Black and then black women more so, and Hispanic women, more so than men and women in general, more than men are still experiencing exclusion and, and being pushed aside. Then it’s taken generations for certain families to sort of build wealth and accumulate wealth and in general, the average white family.

When you haven’t had all of those generations to do that, how can you expect. To sort of catch up in one or two generations when they’ve had dozens of generations that have not been able to fully participate in the economy. And arguably a lot of people still can’t fully participate in the economy cause of things like that.

[00:21:39] Bob Wheeler: And I think because of studies like that you do and these polls, you know, it’s amazing to me that people still don’t understand that the system has been intentionally rigged, that there was red lining, there might still be red lining that banks do racial profiling. On who they lend to based on the way a name sounds.

And so if you’re a [00:22:00] person that’s trying to get ahead and it feels very personal and you aren’t aware that there’s a systemic piece that can be for some real crazy making. Because like, I’m doing this and I’m doing this, and I worked on my credit. You know, I had a client who they knew they had been bad with their finances and all that stuff, but then they were really good for five years and their credit score hadn’t moved an inch.

Right? And they finally called up the. People and they said, well, you know, you have a mortgage in Minnesota that you’ve been laid on and this and that. So somebody had stolen her identity. The banks knew about it, wouldn’t address it. And her credit score was all because somebody had used her social security number for some loans that they weren’t paying on properly.

And so she’s going crazy cuz the system is not working in her favor. She’s doing everything right and she’s still not moving ahead. And I think for a lot of people to start to understand that a lot of this stuff is not your. It’s outside forces working against you. Right,

[00:22:56] Dr. Billy Hensley: and that’s the thing about financial education and personal [00:23:00] finance.

And financial wellbeing. There is an element of choice. Here we are making choices. Sometimes those choices cause us to have less money, cause us to run outta money at the end of the month. But that is not the only reason people are poor. It is not the only reason that entire communities of people aren’t able to get.

You can’t say to me that this entire region or this entire community or this entire zip code doesn’t have agency enough to like work. That’s stupid. I mean, it, it’s, it’s, let’s just figure out how to fix this problem instead of blaming everybody and pointing fingers and saying, well, it worked for me. Why can’t it work for you?

And, and maybe saying, Hey, it. Works differently for us. We’re all different people and we need different kinds of support and we need to catch up, uh, a lot of people who have been held back for generations and generations and, and make that work for all. Because then if people have a choice to say, I want to do a particular career path or not, [00:24:00] and then the training that it takes to get to that point.

Yeah, you may have access to training. If you’re poor or you, you have to work two jobs to keep food on the table. You know, there’s a lot of other things going on in life and, and it’s, you know, life is expensive enough for the average family who doesn’t have all these extra obstacles. So when you add those in, it’s a complicated, messy system that has systemic issues that need to be address.

We are just trying to show the story. We’re trying to give voice to people who haven’t been listened to and heard, and people like Chloe writing about this needy publicizing polling and data. We’re trying to understand where people are coming from. When you truly have choice, when you truly have agency, then personal financial education works really well, and it’s an important component of your financial.

But you can know all the answers. You could be even a certified financial planner, but if [00:25:00] you have no clients, if you have no income, it doesn’t do you any good. And so that’s the point we’re trying to make is to say there are people being held back, people are paid less just based on their background, their race, things they can’t help, where they grew up, things like that.

And so the more clear we can be about this and the better data we can get our hands on and and advocate for, hopefully the practice of financial education improves hopeful. The financial services sector steps up to the plate and better serves all of their customers, all of their potential customers.

Hopefully we have better policies in place so that every family has an opportunity to elevate their next generation. That’s what we wanna see.

[00:25:43] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. And it’s been great that there’s all this information that you’re providing so we can start to see trends and, and be able to compare and see how we’re progressing.

Now talking about Chloe, she, uh, had a focus group and a student said, racism and [00:26:00] structural oppression will always inform more of my experiences than learning how to budget. Do you feel the student was far off in their estimation? Based on the world we live in?

[00:26:11] Dr. Billy Hensley: Well, absolutely not. I mean, that student was speaking their truth and the problem that we have as a community of financial educators, not all of us.

I mean, I just think, I think we need to listen. That is this person’s experience that that student gave voice thousands, hundreds of thousands of other people who have a similar background or a similar experience. Why are we not listening to. Why are we not trying to change the way we provide financial education so they feel present?

And part of that is a conversation about all of these things that have happened in the past that led to the reason that black families have one 10th of the wealth of white victims. There’s a reason for that. Let’s discuss it. And the more we understand that as [00:27:00] educators, the more we understand that as individuals, the more that student, that child, that person with all this potential, the more they see and understand that maybe it gives them the coNEFEdence they need.

Because they know it’s not just them. They’re not bad with money necessarily. They just have a lot of extra things to overcome. Right? To make it even harder to build wealth for that next generat. Let’s listen. Why do we not believe? You know, I wrote a op-ed a couple years ago and I said something in it like, why are we not listening when 44 million Americans are saying something is a problem?

Why do we just dismiss that as that? Well, I don’t feel it personally. It must not be. It’s not really a problem. We’re just wiping that away. I think that’s the number, 44 million African American people live in this country. I may be completely wrong in that number. That’s just my bad memory with calling that.

But if they’re saying this very clearly, we focus on one or two black voices who don’t agree that that’s an issue. [00:28:00] Instead of the 99.9% of people are saying, listen to us. This is a. There’s an economic inequality, structural history, current practice that is happening that is keeping us from reaching our full financial potential.

If we don’t listen to them as financial educators, as financial bloggers, as advocates, as good neighbors, as friends, as family, how can we better the system? So listen. Believe them when they say this is an issue. Believe them when they say, all of these other things that I bring into the classroom are gonna skew or give a certain voice or a certain lens to how I perceive what you’re saying in personal finance.

That’s what we need to be talking about when it comes to personal finances. It’s not an excuse, it’s an explanation for where we are and let’s discuss how to get better. But in the mean, Let’s use [00:29:00] financial education to help people navigate the system that exists. It doesn’t mean the system is fair. It doesn’t mean that it’s set up in a way that promotes, uh, true advancement.

It doesn’t mean that it’s designed in a way that allows for the next generation to have a better quality of life financially or even health wise. But it helps navigate the system. It helps, hopefully you can see better the issues that are there and then, and while we’re hopefully creating a better system and a more equitable, fair system, then why can’t we learn as much as we can about personal finance and give context to it so that every young person, every old, every person, period, and in particular younger people see their voice present in financial education.

So that they can feel heard in financial education, they can bring their full self to the room and then maybe they’ll approach the topic and be more, more interested in learning the topic while we hopefully are also creating a better system, [00:30:00] stronger economic system for all of us, no matter what zip code we grew up in.

And no matter what color our skin is, no matter what our sexual orientation is, so that we have the same opportunity and we truly have

[00:30:10] Bob Wheeler: choice. Absolutely. And I think for people not feeling heard, find the courage to even have your voice, even if it’s shaking , like, that’s right. Move forward. And even if you move forward, scared, move forward and, and you’re not alone.

You are not alone. Absolutely. Well, Dr. Billy, we are at the Fast Five. And the Fast Five is brought to you by NEFE, the National Endowment for Financial Education. NEFE Champions Effective Financial Educat. They are an independent centralizing voice, providing leadership, research and collaboration to advance financial wellbeing.

So, Dr. Billy, if your bank account could talk, what would it say?

[00:30:53] Dr. Billy Hensley: You’ve gotten much better at managing impulse purchases.

[00:30:58] Bob Wheeler: I love that your, that [00:31:00] your money talks to you positively, . It’s not shaming you.

[00:31:04] Dr. Billy Hensley: Yeah. Yeah. I am an optimist,

[00:31:06] Bob Wheeler: so I love that. Now, are you already preparing for holiday spending and holiday shopping?

I’m not actually, no. Are you a last minute, uh, holiday shopper? I’m a

[00:31:16] Dr. Billy Hensley: sort of post Thanksgiving, sort of early December shopper.

[00:31:20] Bob Wheeler: Okay. That’s still good. That’s pretty good. That’s pretty good. Yeah. I sometimes push it to the deadline. How much do you typically spend when you’re deciding to treat yourself? Oh

[00:31:29] Dr. Billy Hensley: gosh.

I guess when I’m treating myself, it’s usually food or a trip. So, you know, that could be as. Going through it and getting a large order of fries, McDonald’s, , you know, which is like two bucks or whatever, to going to a really good, you know, state place like s splurging on a, you know, like a a hundred dollars.

Per person meal. Um, I do that occasionally too, but that’s how I celebrate milestones and getting through things like the NE board, maybe for example, which is . You know, it’s a lot of work to get [00:32:00] there. That’s how big a ne or board or anything like that. It’s just, you know, it’s a lot of work when you get past it.

Hey, we did it. Let’s go.

[00:32:05] Bob Wheeler: Let’s celebrate. Yeah. What’s your savings kryptonite?

[00:32:09] Dr. Billy Hensley: Oh gosh. Well, you’re probably looking for a something. I dip into my savings for, but I think mine is the fact that it’s so easy to move. It from my savings to my checking with like two clicks. It is too easy. There’s no danger for me.

I feel like I need a separate saving discount at a bank. Then I don’t have an

[00:32:29] Bob Wheeler: app for it . Now I recommend that to people. I recommend it to my clients because I did the same thing. And a lot of people’s savings account is just their overdraft protection and it’s not really savings. Yeah. So get it to another bank where you, it takes a while to cash that money out, so you’re actually saving it.

Yeah. But that’s great. I, that’s a good point. When do you feel the most grateful to have?

[00:32:50] Dr. Billy Hensley: When I need to repair something at my home, ,

[00:32:55] Bob Wheeler: that’s a good time to have money.

[00:32:56] Dr. Billy Hensley: You know that feeling of like, I don’t know how to do this. I know how to fix a [00:33:00] few things, but when it’s something big and you’re like, oh gosh, or you have an accident and you have to do the deductible, that is that moment of feeling.

Relief because I don’t have to deal with a broken oven for three weeks or until my next payday kind of thing.

[00:33:17] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. And I think we’ve all been there when the money’s not there. Oh yeah.

[00:33:20] Dr. Billy Hensley: And you just, I appreciate it so much, . I felt it vividly. Yes,

[00:33:26] Bob Wheeler: absolutely. Well, we are at the m and m sweet spot. Uh, money and motivation.

Do you have a practical financial tip or a piece of wealth wisdom you could share with our listen. Oh gosh.

[00:33:39] Dr. Billy Hensley: I know you probably get this one a lot. Uh, sleep on it. I love it. Yeah. Because a lot of times the next day I’m clearer about a lot of things in life. Yeah. But in particular a big purchase or like a car, you know, I’m a car person.

Yeah. And you know, sometimes it’s the sleep on it and you really know if you’re

[00:33:58] Bob Wheeler: ready for it on. [00:34:00] Yeah. And to that piece as well. The other thing I used to do, cuz I’ve had trouble saying no when people trying, no, no, you need to buy it, you need to. I would say, oh, uh, I gotta talk to my business partner. I gotta ask my parents.

Uh, my grandparents review everything I do. So I always blame a third party that’s not there. And they’ll usually go, oh, I get it. I get it. You know, I’m like my grandparents, man. They like, they give me grief.

[00:34:21] Dr. Billy Hensley: Yeah. I think when I was younger I probably would’ve leaned into that more. And anymore I’m just like, I guess the older you get, the more coNEFEdence you have and you’re just kinda like, yeah, for sure.

I’ll think about it and let you know tomorrow. And that’s the end of the step. That’s

[00:34:34] Bob Wheeler: it. We’re done. I agree. I think it gets easier as you get older. Well, Dr. Ballet, I appreciate today because I think what N’S doing is great. It’s so important. I believe that we find the wider welcome that we make space for everybody, and the more we can look at those folks that are on the fringe, That have been marginalized, the more we can bring in everybody.

It’s not necessarily their fault, and most [00:35:00] likely it’s not. Circumstance. And things beyond their control have dictated their lives. And so the more that we can widen that, welcome, the world’s a better place. Right? And so I so appreciate what you’re doing. Where can people learn more about NEFE?

[00:35:15] Dr. Billy Hensley: Sure. Our website’s the best place, n e.org.

Or you can go follow us on Twitter, m e ere.

[00:35:25] Bob Wheeler: Well, Dr. Billy, I so appreciate it and we’re excited that, uh, November is NEFE in November, so lots to learn from NEFE. Thank you so much.

[00:35:34] Dr. Billy Hensley: Thank.

We

[00:35:42] Bob Wheeler: hope you enjoyed this episode. Did you learn something new about your relationship to money today? Maybe you have a friend who has some financial blocks or beliefs that are holding them back. Please share this podcast so they too can get off the rollercoaster Ride of financial fears and journey towards financial freedom.

To learn how to have a healthy [00:36:00] relationship with money, visit the money nerve.com. That’s nerve not nerd. We’ll be back next week with another perspective on money and the emotions that bind us.