K-12 Financial Education Mandates. Emma Donahue

[00:00:00] Bob Wheeler: High school education is supposed to prepare students for the real world. However, for many students, the reality is that they graduate without any real world knowledge of personal finance. This is a problem because personal finance is one of the most important life skills that somebody can have. The Covid 19 pandemic has highlighted how many American adults live on the financial edge, and this has boosted ongoing efforts to make financial literacy a mandatory part of high school Educat.

This month we’re celebrating the 30th anniversary of the National Endowment for Financial Education. NFI Champions effective financial Education. They are an independent centralizing voice, providing leadership, research, and collaboration to advance financial wellbeing. NFI envisions a nation where everyone has the knowledge, confidence, and opportunity to live their best financial.

To honor this special event, I’ve invited some of the staff from NFE to discuss some of the most recent topics and statistics from polls they have [00:01:00] conducted that are impacting the personal finance space. We’ll also talk about how financial literacy helped shape their personal lives, both the good times as well as tough moments.

In this episode, I chat with Emma Donahue N’s Manager of Policy and Advocacy, who focuses on advancing N’S policies around K through 12 financial education mandate. All that is equal is not always equitable. We discuss the importance of starting a financial education early to empower kids to learn about money.

To learn more about Nephi’s recent article, not all mandates are created equal. A 2022 legislative recap. Visit nfe.org or click on the link in the show notes. I hope you enjoy part three in our five part series of NFI in November with our special guest, NFIs Emma, Donna. I’m Bob Wheeler, and this is Money You should Ask, where we explore why we do what we do when it comes to money[00:02:00]

and Madonna. Nephi’s Manager of policy and advocacy focuses on advancing Nephi’s policies around K12 financial education mandates. She works on tracking legislation nationally and expanding Nephi’s role in this policy area. Emma received her bachelor’s and master’s degree in public policy and political Science from the University of Denver.

When she isn’t working, she enjoys hiking with her husband and adorable black lab. She has served on several youth leadership boards and enjoys being an active in her c. It’s so wonderful to have you on the show, Emma. So great to be here. Well, I’m excited because NFIs celebrating 30 years and financial advocacy and so I just really appreciate that we get to join in [00:03:00] that celebration in NFI in November.

[00:03:02] Emma Donahue: It’s great to have you join us. We’re really excited about our 30th anniversary and, you know, doing some great things this year to make sure everybody knows about it. And you

[00:03:10] Bob Wheeler: are the manager of policy and advocacy, and I’m wondering what is your primary focus as the manager of policy and advocacy?

[00:03:18] Emma Donahue: So my primary focus is really looking at K12 financial literacy requirements, and we are looking across the country to see what states are doing right now, what states are looking at doing.

Our goal is really to make sure that every kid across the country gets a quality financial education course. And so we are working to see what’s been done well, what needs work, and where we can be helpful in the process.

[00:03:45] Bob Wheeler: And you have a program Fin Ed 50. And so how is that changing how financial education is being implemented across all 50 states?

[00:03:53] Emma Donahue: So we’re really excited to be part of FiNet 50. It’s a consortium of US Visa and the [00:04:00] Council on Economic Education and a few other partners. So we’re really excited to be a part of that. It’s not our project, it’s one we joined in on, but we on that project are able to use our resources, our research, to really show what’s the best.

Versions, what the research shows is the best way to get financial education to students. And then working with partners who are able to go out and talk to legislators and go out and actually, you know, really push this policy moving forward so that more states are adopting

[00:04:27] Bob Wheeler: it in Colorado where NFI is based, personal finance standards are required to be implemented.

And so how does that make a difference in students’ lives? So we do

[00:04:35] Emma Donahue: have standards required in our curriculum here in Colorado and that just makes sure. In some courses over your education career, you are getting some of those personal finance, you know, core elements at nfi and we would love to have Colorado join us.

We really want to make sure that there is a set aside dedicated course for financial literacy and education that every student has to take before graduation. [00:05:00] That’s really our goal across the country and in here in Colorado. It’s great to have it embedded in courses so at least students are getting it.

This really needs to be a primary focus for students before they’re leaving high schools. That, that they know what, you know, how to make good financial decisions as they’re entering college and you know, starting their

[00:05:17] Bob Wheeler: careers. How do you get people started early, like, I’m gonna do a shameless plug here.

I just wrote a children’s book. I’m doing this series on financial literacy called Financially Fit Kids, and I’m just trying to make stuff fun for 5, 6, 7 year olds to like not make it like, oh, we’re having that serious talk. But how do you start to engage people and when do you start to engage people?

[00:05:42] Emma Donahue: We think that you can engage students as early as kindergarten or.

Kids understand money in a very interesting concept when they’re very young. You often hear about kids like go to the ATM with their parents and they just think it’s the magic money machine that like spits out money and don’t understand that. Like you have to work to [00:06:00] put it in there first. . So there’s really easy ways you can start talking to kids very early on about ATMs and money and, you know, paper money and how kids, you know, buy, they wanna buy a piece of candy, like explaining how that works.

There’s really easy ways that are age appropriate to really bring in finance in a fun way. We’ve seen some great programs across the country that are really, you know, very young kids focused to really get them to learn about careers and jobs, and that’s how you make money and you know, all of those things.

And so there’s great ways to do it, and it’s never too early to start talking about money, and we should be making it in a. Happy way cuz money shouldn’t be stressful for everybody growing up. It shouldn’t be the thing like, oh, we have to have the big serious talk. It should be something that’s just part of your life and that you talk about easily.

So earlier you start the easier

[00:06:57] Bob Wheeler: it is. I just want to mention again that you [00:07:00] said age appropriate. I think that’s so important because it doesn’t mean you go home to the kids and. We’re not gonna have rent covered next month. I know you’re six, but you’re gonna start working, right? , we don’t wanna heavy burden them with some of the more serious stuff because they are kids, but where we can include them, where we can help them make choice about where we’re gonna go on vacation.

Or little things that don’t make a huge impact if they misstep in their choices.

[00:07:27] Emma Donahue: Yeah. Starting off easy, small things where, yeah, it’s not, you know, the end of the world if they go over their candy budget, but you know, just getting kids to be aware of what’s going on around them.

[00:07:39] Bob Wheeler: Yeah, absolutely. Do you think it would’ve had an impact on your life if personal finance standards were required in your

[00:07:45] Emma Donahue: high school?

I grew up here in Colorado, so I did go to some Colorado schools and the standards were included, but I think. A more emphasis on them, a more priority on them would’ve made a bigger difference in my life going forward. [00:08:00] I graduated, I decided to go to college. I check out student loans. I will am still paying them back currently, like many people my age are doing.

And I think I would’ve made some different financial decisions around college earlier in my life if I had maybe had that information more readily present. When I needed it. We talk a lot in NFI about in time interventions around financial education and that getting it to people in the moments that you know, right before they’re making those big decisions, often can be the most beneficial long term.

And I think that would’ve done a lot for me as well, .

[00:08:39] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. And I’m wondering, you know, you talked about if there had been more of an emphasis, and I’m wondering. , and I guess it’s always a risk that some places that have to implement it will just be, well, we have to implement this, so run through the steps, check box and not really be the financial nerd that I am, or maybe that you are.

And NFI is that are like, [00:09:00] this is super important. Don’t have the passion. I mean, it’s still, they’re gonna get the information, but if they’re not quite as passionate as we. It still may be like, oh, money you

[00:09:10] Emma Donahue: can’t get. People always super excited about, you know, finance and money and data is, maybe the two of us get excited about it and NFI definitely does, but just presenting the information, having it, you know, not just lost in another course where it’s easy to ignore having it presented very.

At the forefront for students, we really do see, can have a lot of benefits. Whether they’re willing to, you know, be excited about it, they’re at least absorbing some of it . And that can go a long way. And you know, at NFI we really want, as more states are requiring a financial literacy course for high school graduation, we wanna make sure that those requirements.

Have the resources behind it and have the teacher development behind it so that the teachers feel prepared and excited to teach it. And that goes a long way to getting kids prepared and excited,

[00:09:59] Bob Wheeler: [00:10:00] especially high school kids who are not always, you know, they’re too cool for things. Trying to help them understand and care about financial empowerment is so important.

[00:10:09] Emma Donahue: And there’s a lot of ways that it can be real world examples for high school students. You know, a lot of high school students get their first job and you know, then they have to start paying taxes and they have to be, you know, part of that system. Even if we’re just teaching, like, here are like things you legally have to do, , so here’s how to do it well and not, you know, we don’t need to, you know, jump way ahead to like, here’s how you set up retirement accounts and here’s how you, let’s do stuff that’s relevant to their everyday.

Teach them that and then, you know, it gets them in the habit to start thinking about things as they go forward. Was there

[00:10:40] Bob Wheeler: anything, when you either graduated high school or college, you said, oh, wow, , I didn’t realize that was like a, an adult thing I was gonna have to do. Like they didn’t mention that.

[00:10:52] Emma Donahue: I mean, I feel like we all have some of those moments where you’re like, huh, or you didn’t realize how involved it was gonna be before [00:11:00] you got there.

I think as people are leaving college and you know, maybe starting their first real job or their, you know, first big full-time job, you don’t always think to about the benefits that your employer’s offering and make sure that you understand them and that you’re getting the most out of them. And so I think.

You know, you get there and you’re like, oh, well I get healthcare and I get this, but are you really looking at what’s being offered? Are you really getting the best version opportunity for yourself? And so I think, you know, if you have a better understanding of like how matching retirement accounts work and all of those things, like yeah, it’s money outta your pocket today, but you know, you might understand that it really is going to be a benefit in the long term as compared to, you know, the extra 20 bucks

[00:11:42] Bob Wheeler: right now.

I mean, I was guilty of that too. You start making money. If you can just adjust and realize I wasn’t making the money before, so I could probably still live without it a little bit, so let me put some money in the credit union, or let me put some money in retirement, or let me start putting money in a Roth [00:12:00] IRA if I qualify.

And some companies will pay for additional education or will pay for certain things that you’re just letting ’em pass by, and some of them are tax free or non-taxed, and that’s cash in your.

[00:12:14] Emma Donahue: Definitely. And yeah, so I think understanding, you know, what you can get as an extra benefit that’s not costing you anything that would be really helpful is really important.

And I think a lot of employers try to do a really good job of explaining what their benefits are, but they don’t know what your background is, what information you’re coming in with and not, and so they don’t always think to tell. Everything that, cuz you know, employers are like, oh, I assume you know this.

And it’s like, no, I didn’t get that part,

[00:12:41] Bob Wheeler: so I didn’t get the memo. Yeah. Now going back, let’s say I’m a teacher, I’m listening to this and I’m a teacher and I realize, man, I want to help my students get the financial education. I want to help them. Hone their financial literacy skills. What resources could a teacher turn to to begin implementing [00:13:00] financial literacy in their classroom?

There’s a

[00:13:02] Emma Donahue: lot of great resources out there that often a lot of them are free for teachers. We work with a lot of organizations that are providers. Jumpstart Coalition has a lot of great resources out there on their website and often will link you to other resources that aren’t theirs, but that they connect.

There is the Council on Economic Education. They have some great resources out there. They also have some great overviews of what states are doing now and not doing right now. But for teachers, you know, also check out our website, nife.org. There’s some connections there to help find other resources for teachers and educators, and so there’s lots of information out.

The Federal Reserve puts out some great programs for teaching students. There’s some great government resources as well, so there’s lots of options out there that are free or low cost that teachers can really implement on their own. We see a lot of teachers implementing financial literacy even without being told they have to, and so we love to see that and make sure that they have [00:14:00] what they need to do it well.

Is

[00:14:01] Bob Wheeler: NFE able to tell when people have access to this kind of knowledge or the awareness? Of this stuff that it’s made a difference in the students’ lives.

[00:14:11] Emma Donahue: We are starting to really get some more in depth research around that topic. Specifically tracking students for the long term can be the one.

Challenge in getting some good data on that research is, you know, you gotta keep following people after they leave school, and sometimes that’s a challenge. We’re starting to look at some of that, but we did some public opinion polls a couple months ago that said that about 80% of individuals who were polled would have liked to have had a financial literacy course while they were in high school, and think that students today should at least get a semester worth of that course before graduation.

So there’s definitely public demand for it out there.

[00:14:50] Bob Wheeler: I don’t know if NFE has gone into this yet, into specifics, and maybe just your own personal experience. Is it understanding how to manage [00:15:00] debt? Is it. Learning how to save. Like is there an area where most students come out saying, doesn’t all money just come from ATM machines?

Like, are there some certain areas where we know there’s just this surprise when they enter responsibility world that, oh man, I just didn’t, I had no idea.

[00:15:21] Emma Donahue: I think the one we, I think we see the most, especially, you know, you get your first job in high school is how much taxes get taken out of your. People are not prepared for, you know, they’re like, oh, I make X amount an hour, and they, you know, do the math.

I work this many hours. And then they’re surprised when their check is, you know, a couple hundred dollars shorter than that. So I think really understanding taxes of what comes out of your paycheck and what you might get back at the end of the year when you follow your taxes. What is just part of, you know, building towards social security for your future.

But I think a lot of times we see that is a huge surprise, is they’re not making as much money as they think they are.

[00:15:59] Bob Wheeler: That is so [00:16:00] interesting. I just, you know, it’s interesting because I have clients that are successful older. They’ve been working for a while, and one year they’ll have a hundred thousand dollars at 10 90.

And one year they’ll have a W2 with a hundred thousand dollars and they can’t understand why they owe significantly more on the 10 99 . And they’re like, I made the same amount of money. Like, well, you didn’t have any taxes taken out at all. And. It’s such a disconnect. That’s really interesting that you mention that because I see it all the time in my tax practice, it didn’t even, didn’t even connect to the dots.

[00:16:33] Emma Donahue: Yeah. I was a 10 99 employee for a very long time. I ran my own business. You know, when you’re working for yourself, you have to pay those taxes and I think a lot of times that is not calculated into people’s thoughts as they’re going about their business and that the end of the year, that’s gonna hurt

[00:16:51] Bob Wheeler: It is cuz they’re gonna come. You know, I’m always amazed. Some years clients will say, now, When is tax deadline this year? Pretty much [00:17:00] April 15th. Give or take a day or two every single year. It’s not really gonna change. . Yeah. The

[00:17:06] Emma Donahue: federal go not, not big on moving dates around a lot. They kind of stick to something once they figured it out.

So .

[00:17:12] Bob Wheeler: That’s right. Yeah. We’re gonna have taxes next year too. . Just count on it. Just count. That is so interesting. You know the other thing I know like when kids get outta college, all the credit card companies are there to hand them credit cards.

[00:17:26] Emma Donahue: Oh. I mean, it used to be so much worse. They used to show up the day you walked into college to hand you a credit card.

There’s been a lot of work done around that predatory practice of you turn 18, you walk onto campus and there’s 18 credit card companies trying to get you to sign up. So there it’s getting a little better. But yes, there’s still a lot of, you walk out, you get your first job and everybody says Here, don’t you want a credit

[00:17:47] Bob Wheeler: card?

I got $20,000 worth of credit, you know, and I thought I had $20,000 of extra money .

[00:17:55] Emma Donahue: I, I also did not handle credit cards well in college, so I understand. And [00:18:00] yeah, it’s been something I’ve had to fix over the years and, you know, we’re trying to make it so we’re getting people, the education before they make the poor decision.

Not after. And you know, even if you, we all make four financial decisions in our lives one way or another. And it doesn’t mean that you are bad at money and that you can’t ever get above it. But you know, we all make ’em and we all learn from it. But we’re trying to make it so people don’t have to learn quite as the hard way anymore.

[00:18:27] Bob Wheeler: Yeah, absolutely. And I think once there at least starts to be awareness. Of something like taxes or credit card debt management or saving, at least if it’s in the. If it’s in the room, it’s in, it’s been spoken about, oh, well maybe that’s a resource. Maybe I can go ask somebody about that. Because like I know my parents, they just didn’t have the knowledge.

It’s not that they didn’t want to share it with me. They didn’t know, and they didn’t know that I got offered $20,000 worth of credit card debt that ended up probably costing me [00:19:00] 35,000 by the time I paid it all. And so the more we know that there are allies, that there are places like nfe, that there are other financial literacy organizations out there that want to help, that want to empower people, that we can ask for help.

I think for me, I know that I felt it was so personal. I didn’t want anybody to know my financial situation. I needed everybody to think I had it dialed in and so I didn’t wanna ask for help cuz then what if they think, oh my god, Bob didn’t know that. Right? The shame. And so I’m just gonna stay quiet.

[00:19:31] Emma Donahue: It’s very common in our society. You don’t talk about money, you don’t talk about politics, and you don’t talk about religion. And in some ways that keeps people quiet about issues that they don’t necessarily need to be. There are resources out there. There is a way to help you. There are people who definitely wanna help explain the answer before you make a decision.

You know, I. A lot of, you know, what we do at NFI is making it more comfortable to talk about all of these issues and that just [00:20:00] because, yeah, you took out a lot of credit card debt, doesn’t mean you are the bad person. It’s that it was easy, it was there. And credit card companies definitely don’t share that interest rate when they’re trying to push you for that new car.

Earlier I was talking about, you know, kids and young children, the more we’re talking about this earlier, Less, it becomes an issue, a less that it is a stigma and that the more we can be open about what’s going on and that, you know, a lot of these decisions for individuals seem good on paper, but you’re not looking that the company is bringing predatory, that they are doing things that while legal aren’t really the best for the consumer and that it’s.

Just your decisions, it’s those companies and those institutions decisions that are affecting you as well. And

[00:20:44] Bob Wheeler: I would think in the long run, even though I know in the short run they make profits, but in the long run, I would think they’d wanna be empowering their consumer base, their customer base, so that they will have even more money to spend later on.

And so the more we can help everybody [00:21:00] as they’re growing into their. Full being is to be able to give them resource and give them tools so that they can make more empowering decisions and everybody’s gonna win them in the long run.

[00:21:11] Emma Donahue: Yeah. The more information doesn’t hurt, it helps you make even better decisions going forward.

It helps you build toward your goals. It’s really great. You know, a nfi, we believe in making sure there’s good factual information out there about all of these topics that people can easily find and use.

[00:21:28] Bob Wheeler: What would you. For yourself, the biggest piece you wished you had known about? I mean, I know we talked about the tax and stuff, but for you personally, when you got out there, man, I wished I.

Known a little bit more about this.

[00:21:42] Emma Donahue: I mean, definitely student loans is gonna be on the top. Was lucky to go to a great college, but it was a private university, so it was expensive and I definitely took out a lot of loans and in ways that were not maybe the best decisions of going to the private route instead of looking to [00:22:00] see what other subsidized loans were available, what other grant programs were out there, just knowing more.

There’s a so many ways to finance college, but a lot of them aren’t talked about because it’s the big banks pushing their loans that get the, you know, most attention and not the smaller grant programs. The things you have to work maybe a little harder to get, but you don’t pay back as much at the end.

Or you’re, you know, you’re getting a much better deal, but you have to do a little work. To make it work for you. So I think that would’ve been a big thing. And then, yeah, definitely credit card interest rates, that five grand they’re offering you, you know, quickly can turn into 20 with those interest rates and that, you know, yeah.

Staying on top of that and not letting your balance get high and how that affects your credit score. I mean, I think something I’m still working on today of trying to figure out is how credit scores work in the real world, . Cause we all understand like theoretically what they’re supposed to do. All of a sudden, like you pay off this thing [00:23:00] and it helps your score, but then you pay off this other thing and it doesn’t help your score as much.

And so figuring out like how to be proactive around your own credit scores, your own, like on paper, what you look like on paper is really important. I think not enough of us get that information early on.

[00:23:17] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. It’s so important. And it’s funny when you’re talking about the interest rates or not knowing, I think about my clients that will say, I don’t wanna pay a lot of tax.

and then they are able to legally show that they don’t have as much income. We are aggressive on depreciation and a bunch of stuff. Then they go to the bank and they’re like, Bob, I can’t get a loan cause my income’s too low, and my credit score needed to be this. Well, it’s sort of one or the other. So if you wanna have the loan and you need to qualify, then we’re gonna have to look at maybe not being so aggressive or you’re gonna have to show some other things.

So there’s so many pieces to the puzzle as we’re trying to get a good score, get a loan, buy a [00:24:00] house, manage our debt. There’s a lot to be in a responsible adult, and it’s worth. And the more we can give tools to younger people, the better off everybody’s gonna be.

[00:24:09] Emma Donahue: Yeah, it’s a complex system and students need that information early.

The earlier you start making the decisions and understanding what your decisions will lead to, the stronger you’ll be in the future. And I don’t want anybody feel bad about not understanding the whole complex financial system cuz you know, we do this work and I don’t understand some of it most days.

It’s meant to be complicated. And that’s how it was built. So the more education we have, the better we will manage the system that was made to be

[00:24:38] Bob Wheeler: complicated. Absolutely. And you don’t have to like the rules, but at least if you know the rules then you know how to work with the rules and work in a system, even if it’s not always a fair system.

You

[00:24:49] Emma Donahue: know, that’s something we’re really looking at right now at nfe is, you know, the equity issue around our system. How we make sure that everyone can fully participate in the [00:25:00] financial system regardless. Background or anything else about them, and that’s really important to us to make sure that we might not all like the system, but that everybody is included in it.

[00:25:09] Bob Wheeler: Absolutely. A wider welcome for sure. Well, Emma, we are at the Fast five and this month Fast Five is brought to you by nfi, the National Endowment for Financial Education. NFI Champions Effective Financial Education. They are an independent centralizing voice providing leadership, research and collaboration to advance financial well.

They are celebrating 30 years, so thank you. Thank you, nfi. All right, here we go. Emma, what were you most worried about financially in high school paying for

[00:25:40] Emma Donahue: college? Definitely I knew I wanted to go and that I, my parents weren’t gonna be able to fully pay for it or, you know, really do all of it. So that I knew that was definitely something that was gonna ha be important in my future.

[00:25:53] Bob Wheeler: Is there anything that you’ve s splurged on recently, and if so, what? It’s

[00:25:57] Emma Donahue: always shoes. You know, as we talked about [00:26:00] earlier about, you know, making some interesting financial decisions sometimes is, you know, do you really need the, the $200 pair of shoes? Maybe not, but do you want it? Yes. So it’s usually always shoes.

It’s always shoes for me. If you

[00:26:13] Bob Wheeler: knew your bank account was listening to you, what would you say to

[00:26:16] Emma Donahue: it? I’m very sorry about the shoes, , but they

[00:26:21] Bob Wheeler: were important. What is your biggest

[00:26:23] Emma Donahue: money fear? That is a really, that is a good question cuz biggest money, fear is just not being able to, you know, build the kind of life I want.

My husband and I are trying to buy a house right now. Very fun housing market. So big money fair is just, you know, not being able to get the system to work for me and you know, get it all going in the right direction so I can do what I wanna do. Absolutely.

[00:26:44] Bob Wheeler: What would a treat yourself day look like for you, and how much money would you spend?

Should I spend

[00:26:50] Emma Donahue: or would I spend ? It’s a very good . Would you speak? Would I spend, well, I guess a treat day would probably be very nice. Lunch, [00:27:00] you like to go out, enjoy Probably some shopping. I’m getting my nails done. You know, two, $300 depending on where you go to lunch and what shoes you buy, I would probably spend at least a couple hundred dollars on that.

But you know, that’s not something I get to do very often. Well, you

[00:27:14] Bob Wheeler: know, it’s important to have those little treat yourself days. It’s important to be financially, fiscally responsible. It’s important to make sure you can pay the rent and all those things. And it’s also important to stop every once in a while and say, Hey, I’m doing pretty good.

And be able to celebrate the wins and actually take a pause. Treat yourself. Yeah,

[00:27:32] Emma Donahue: it’s what’s the point of doing all of this if we don’t actually get to have any fun at the end of the day.

Gotta

[00:27:38] Bob Wheeler: have a little fun. It’s very important. Very important. Well, we are at the m and m Money and Motivation sweet spot of the podcast.

I wonder if you have a practical financial tip or a piece of wealth wisdom you could share with our listener.

[00:27:50] Emma Donahue: Something that I did recently that really made a very big difference in my life is check in on all the subscriptions you sign up for. It is amazing how many you will forget [00:28:00] about. So there’s some services out there if you know, want somebody else to help you look through it.

But also just go through your bank statement and start going, what is this? Why is this $15 coming outta my account every month? Do I want this thing anymore? Yeah. Half the time you’ll find you. Don’t even use the service anymore or the product, you know, you forgot about something, you were on some recurring donation thing.

Make sure that where your money’s going is where you actually want your money to go. I saved a lot of money by canceling a bunch of subscriptions I pretty much had forgotten about or weren’t really using well. So make sure you’re looking through to see what it’s so easy to hit. Just those recurring, like take it outta my bank account.

Subscriptions sign up for them. It’s so easy. And then it’s so easy to forget about them as well. So go get your money back, .

[00:28:48] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. That’s awesome. And I think especially now where people do paperless bank statements and paperless everything, and they’re like, Ugh, and we’re not actually stopping. You know, I’m old enough.

We used to [00:29:00] print them out, we’d get them in the mail, you’d take a pencil, you reconcile. And nowadays it’s like, okay, there’s money in the bank and we don’t stop and look. Advocate for that so much because I was paying for an iPad for several months that was theoretically free and an extra phone line, right?

I’m like, wait a minute. But I got in that lazy habit, like, oh yeah, whatever I can afford. I, you know, and even that, even if I can afford it, do I want to give away my money? And so I just think that is such a great tip. Do that this weekend. Everybody. Credit cards, cable bills, phone, everything. Where’s that money going?

I had a friend that was, Candy Crush and it goes on your phone Bill. It was like crazy. Where can people find more about nfe?

[00:29:43] Emma Donahue: You can find us@nfe.org. That’s N E F e.org. There’s a lot of resources there about our research, the work we’re doing, and just great ways to connect with

[00:29:51] Bob Wheeler: us. Well, Emma, it’s been such a great pleasure.

I appreciate you sharing some of your personal story. I appreciate you sharing the work you’re doing at [00:30:00] NFE and the work that NFI is actually out there doing and really appreciate it and we hope everybody will go out and learn more cuz there’s always more to learn. I’m still. We all

[00:30:08] Emma Donahue: are. Thank you so much for having me, and it was great to talk today.

[00:30:18] Bob Wheeler: We hope you enjoyed this episode. Did you learn something new about your relationship to money today? Maybe you have a friend who has some financial blocks or beliefs that are holding them back. Please share this podcast so they too can get off the rollercoaster Ride of Financial Fears and journey towards financial freedom.

To learn how to have a healthy relationship with money, visit the money nerve.com. That’s nerve not nerd. We’ll be back next week with another perspective on money and the emotions that bind us.[00:31:00]