Shining Light on Financial Literacy. Dr. Billy Hensley

[00:00:00] Bob Wheeler: It’s no secret that the financial industry has an inclusion problem. Marginalized groups, including people of color, women and the LGBTQIA+ communities feel discouraged from engaging in financial services. This leaves them at a disadvantage in building wealth and achieving economic security. But there are organizations out there working to change this.

[00:00:20] They’re providing access to financial education, statistics, and resources for marginalized communities and helping them overcome barriers, preventing them from achieving financial success. In this episode recorded at FinCon 22, I invited Dr. Billy Hensley CEO, of the National Endowment for Financial Education.

[00:00:38] NEFE, to discuss the need for inclusion and equality, through empowerment and education within the financial services sector in particular highlighting the most current issues affecting the financial lives of the LGBTQIA+ communities. I’m Bob Wheeler, and this is Money You Should Ask where we explore, why we do what we do when it comes to money.

[00:01:21] Our guest, Dr. Billy Hensley is President and CEO of NEFE, a nonprofit foundation that champions effective financial education. NEFE is the independent centralizing voice, providing leadership research and collaboration to advance financial wellbeing. In May, 2022 NEFE surveyed US adults who identify as LGBTQIA+ community members on a broad range of issues regarding their interactions with the financial services industry and their financial quality of life.

[00:01:48] I urge you to read the full report, How LGBTQIA+ Representation Assures Better Data. There needs to be more discussions about inclusion through education, which means everyone, which means you. A link to the full report is included in our show notes.

[00:02:05] Dr. Hensley, I’m so excited to have you on the show today. I know you’ve got a lot of information.

[00:02:09] I’m a huge fan of NEFE. Thank you for coming.

[00:02:12] Dr. Billy Hensley: I’m glad to be here. I love talking about this and shedding light on all kinds of aspects of financial education how and how it can be better.

[00:02:21] Bob Wheeler: Well, one of the things that I find interesting and what I love about what NEFE is doing is you’re actually getting data, right?

[00:02:27] So somebody can say, oh, I feel sad or I feel poor, or I feel like it’s not working out. But you actually have data to back this up so that if somebody wants to trust the numbers, you’ve got some numbers,

[00:02:36] Dr. Billy Hensley: Right?

[00:02:37] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. You did a talk yesterday. We’re at FinCon and there’s a lot of data about the LGBTQIA+ community and other underserved communities. What are some of the statistics you found that I think people would find surprising,

[00:02:52] Dr. Billy Hensley: To position this, being at FinCon, where they’re talking about money. We’re not just money nerds, we’re data, money nerds. So we’re even worse, you know? But we, the more you dig into this topic of money management, there’s so many factors that influence our financial lives and it’s everything from how we make decisions to how we see ourselves in decisions to do we even feel present

[00:03:20] in the room when they’re, when we’re talking about something that is highly personal as money and personal finance. And so what we wanted to do is look deeper into LGBTQ issues where, how people feel about money, where they have felt excluded. And this really stemmed from being asked to write a blog post in 2021 for pride

[00:03:41] month and there were very few data available. At all with, with queer folks and money. And so we did a survey in the spring nationally represented sample to, to dig into this because we wanted to give voice and we wanted to not only have anecdotal and qualitative information, but we wanted statistical information.

[00:04:04] Bob Wheeler: And when. I mean, it’s surprising there wasn’t a lot of data or maybe it’s not surprising maybe that, you know, everybody else is like, well, it doesn’t impact me. So I don’t, I’m not interested. When you started digging, like what were some of the surprising findings that, that you found?

[00:04:20] Dr. Billy Hensley: Well I, I don’t know that I would say that I felt terribly surprised because the more layers of the money onion we peel back here the more nuance that there is.

[00:04:32] And then but the things that make sense in your gut, like people have been discriminated against in this community, their whole life, and almost every factor. Why not money as well. And so, but the rate of discrimination being. As much as the general population is really the, sort of the main point that I want listeners to understand.

[00:04:56] And I want people to understand is that the general population at large experiences, discrimination or bias on multiple levels, whether that’s age, whether that’s education level. The gay gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer community experiences this at twice that rate. And then you also compound on top of that, all of the other issues of socioeconomic status, education level, age, retirement, readiness, and so forth.

[00:05:21] It, it just compounds it at a factor by two.

[00:05:25] Bob Wheeler: Do you think with the, the, the double, the discrimination and all that, that even though that’s coming from the outside, there may be person. Self, I, I don’t wanna say self sabotage, but maybe like I’m undeserving you know, society says I don’t belong here.

[00:05:42] And so maybe I it’s harder for me to find my, my place or to feel like I’m actually part of the tribe.

[00:05:49] Dr. Billy Hensley: Yeah. I, I. I think I would characterize it about being confident. When you feel beat down in certain ways or you feel, I don’t want to face that financial planner again or that teller. Oh gosh.

[00:06:03] It’s that’s that one teller who always asks me how, you know, if I’m married or about my wife or example, I don’t wanna deal with that again. Right. And so it starts to chip away at your confidence. And if you’ve been discriminated against, on pay on job opportunities, and now you, there are financial products that don’t fit, or you don’t feel that work well for you in your situation, or you feel that the services that you’re trying to attain are harder to attain because of who you are.

[00:06:32] . And you’re trying to live your life in an authentic way, but the confidence has been chipped down and has been pushed away. And then maybe you’ve had little access for things like financial education, for example, which we know helps increase confidence, right? When you have all of these barriers over and over and over, it does play at your ability to sort of advocate for yourself in a way that gives you enough confidence to sort of manage your financial life.

[00:06:57] And you know, this is not a hundred percent of LGBTQ folks, but the percentage is very high. Yeah.

[00:07:04] Bob Wheeler: And do you think, like I know in Los Angeles and West Hollywood there are a lot of gay men that may have a lot of debt, right. That they a couple different things. There was a period. I had several clients that had a lot of debt because they had tested positive.

[00:07:22] They figured who cares. Oh. And I’m gonna spend all this money. And then all of a sudden, oh, Mm, I’m still around now. I’m gonna have to deal with my finances. Mm. Because they thought, well, I’m not gonna be around who cares. Mm. And then another part of the population I’ve seen where I don’t feel good about myself.

[00:07:38] So I’m gonna go out and buy the nicest car, the fanciest clothes and let everybody know how this I am. Even though underneath, there’s just this fear of, I hope nobody figures out that I’m just presenting well,

[00:07:52] Dr. Billy Hensley: Well, I, I would say that’s all of us, you know, gay, straight that that’s true. You know, the keeping up with our neighbors.

[00:07:58] Yeah. The, the, the posturing ourselves with certain labels. I mean, I literally was just walking down the hall and saw so many designer labels on clothes that. You know, it, it, I question, you know, is this because this is the best product for them? Or are they positioning themselves a certain way?

[00:08:20] Right. And there are multiple conferences going on here. So I don’t know if they’re part of this group or not, but it, it, you know, I think that’s a general sort of American trope, if you will. But I, I think that sense of trying to build confidence in any way we can. If clothing is something that works for you or travel or nice

[00:08:41] i, I love cars personally. Okay. You know, I, I was always the person who had a new car every three or four years. I just, this is who I am. I love cars always have as a, even as a kid. And so that to me was the marker of success. In some ways, even though. I was buying things I probably couldn’t afford, especially in my twenties, you know?

[00:08:58] Yeah. That we all do, or a lot of us do. So I think that plays out in a way that you’re also. Sort of trying to navigate a system, trying to belong knowing that you can’t always bring your authentic, full self to the table, whether that’s in financial services or education or wherever that is.

[00:09:17] And then we all try to find ways to sort of cope with that. And sometimes it’s very unhealthy financial. Behaviors that we, that we lean into. I don’t think it’s necessarily attributed to LGBTQ folks in particular. I think it’s an American thing, but when you’re already starting with multiple layers of discrimination and bias to manage our financial lives are comp complicated.

[00:09:44] There are so many obstacles that impede financial wellbeing for many. And the reason we do things like this pole, for example, is to shed light on the boulders to shed light on the obstacles so that we can either help people navigate around them or advocate for their removal altogether, which is the ideal.

[00:10:02] Bob Wheeler: Right? And so when you get this data and now you’ve got this information, how do you do that? How do you go out? And, you know, you shed the light and and then you help maybe help take down some walls, but how do you, how does NEFE go. With this data and say, Hey, people wake up. Yeah, look at this information.

[00:10:22] Dr. Billy Hensley: Yeah. Well, this is one of those talking to you talking to these really smart, brilliant people who have a platform. , you know, we, we want to shed light. We wanna give voice, provide platform to share all of the trust that NEFE’s been able to build over the years with being a research based organization and say, Hey, you’ve trusted us with these other questions.

[00:10:43] Here’s another time we need to listen. And so the more that we can talk about these data, the more that we can shed light on experiences of, of disenfranchised or, or any, any of us who can achieve our financial best life . We want to be able to do that. And so we do it through media, we do it through research.

[00:11:03] We do it through research publications, you sort of the old school peer reviewed research journals. We, we are trying to touch it in as, in as many ways as possible. And. We hope that that allows industry. We hope it, it empowers the consumer to understand how do they advocate for themselves. How do they go back to the bank?

[00:11:22] How do they go to their financial planner and say, listen this has been an issue. I think we could do better with better language. I think we can do better with better products and hopefully it empowers individuals to either advocate for themselves or the system change or ideally both.

[00:11:38] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. Now NFI is getting ready to celebrate 30 years. Yes. Which is pretty awesome. How long has financial literacy been a passion of yours?

[00:11:49] Dr. Billy Hensley: Well, you know, I didn’t know what to call it when I was in college. I I remember distinctly sitting in a class. I won’t say the class. I won’t call out the name of the course, but it was an 8:00 AM class.

[00:12:02] And I would sit in that class and write out sort of all my expenses. And so I guess I had a predisposition to at least record that and, and it was the sense of trying to create order in my life in a way and, and write down the budget. So at that time, I think I was very interested in that. And then I started looking at it more closely, especially when I was in my twenties.

[00:12:22] And this was the right before the housing collapse. 2004. I was asking myself, well, everyone else is buying a house. Why shouldn’t I?

[00:12:31] Bob Wheeler: Right.

[00:12:31] Dr. Billy Hensley: I bought a house and then I read a book a personal finance book, my first one, and it basically told me I did everything wrong. You know, I, I took the first product that was offered.

[00:12:42] I, I just bought, because I didn’t think about any of the expenses that went into buying a house. Right. I didn’t have a water hose. I didn’t have a rake or a hoe. I, I had nothing and expensive. Yeah. I went from a one bedroom apartment to a house and, and trying to make that transition. So I think that.

[00:12:59] deepened the interest. And then when I finished graduate school and I saw the position at NEFE, I started originally as director of education before I became CEO. And it was a marriage of research and decision making and education, and it was sort of the perfect job for me. And so it, it. Elevated that interest that I already had.

[00:13:21] I wouldn’t say I was a personal finance nerd, but I’ve always been a research nerd if you will. Yeah. And I married those things and, and then add on to that philanthropy. And it’s been an amazing job and amazing experience. And, and, you know, I think my particular lens of being, you know, growing up in a very low income blue collar community it.

[00:13:42] I think it’s brought a lens, especially for research about how we ask questions and what questions we ask. So it, you know, that part of it has been fun is to try to figure out my own lane. Yeah. And, and how do we sort of elevate that? And so, you know, we’re 30, I guess NEFE’s a millennial, if you will. So.

[00:13:58] Bob Wheeler: And growing up in a small town blue collar, low income, did your parents talk about money? Did they talk about money with you? Did they handle their money with finesse?

[00:14:11] Dr. Billy Hensley: Lord? No, No. To all of that. Yeah, I mean, where I grew up, you just sort of get by you know money was a means to an end.

[00:14:22] It was like you, you paid the bill that was in front of you. You put food on the table. There was no discussion about down the road. 401k , 403B was not on a radar. None of us knew what that was. It sounds like computer code, you know? Right. It just wasn’t part of what we talked about. It was about the immediate need and, and communities that are largely impoverished or poor.

[00:14:44] That’s how you have to manage. And one of the things that I’ve said since I’ve been at NEFE is that low income and poor people in particular, like where I grew up, you can stretch a dollar better than anyone, way better than probably anyone in this room. Yeah. If you, you know, if we’re being honest, but they don’t have enough resources to like, apply that on a large scale for their life.

[00:15:04] It’s about getting from Wednesday to payday. Yeah. It’s about paying the bill. And so we didn’t talk about religion. We didn’t talk about politics and we didn’t talk about money. Those were the things we didn’t talk about. I’m a gen Xer. So, you know, I, I came of age in the early nineties and but my parents, you know, they struggled to make ends meet.

[00:15:22] They largely lived paycheck to paycheck. They lived, you know, they worked hourly jobs and just probably the last 10 years of their career, did they finally feel a little comfortable? But we never talked about it. We never talked about money management. The only messages I really got was for my grandparents who avoided all

[00:15:39] debt and that’s almost the other extreme, you know, we, we hold that up, but then there’s no example for how to manage a mortgage and how to manage a credit card. It was just sort of this evil thing that you pushed to the side, but the life we live now, you have to have some version of a card, whether it’s a debit card or not, but, and how do you manage that?

[00:15:59] We didn’t talk about any of those things.

[00:16:01] Bob Wheeler: Well, I’m thinking about up in the coal towns that I visited. In high school, we would go and work in these different communities drift Kentucky and places, and education literacy, let alone financial literacy, just, wasn’t always a thing. A lot of people didn’t get through high school.

[00:16:23] And I remember this family talking about being able to stretch a dollar. This woman had several kids and man with a piece of bacon and a bunch of flowers. She could make sausage gravy and bacon gravy and make it like, you know, one piece of bacon. I’m like, ah, man, like she knew how to make that dollar stretch and she’d give you her last Coke in the refrigerator.

[00:16:45] And it, it. Like there’s a will , there to like, we will survive. I mean, yeah. May not be in Beverly Hills, but we are gonna, right. We’re gonna eat, we’re gonna eat and we’re gonna right. And we’re gonna get there. And, and so I appreciate that the tenacity or the, the like , just the, the raw determination

[00:17:08] Um, but I, I. It’s hard, you go out and then you go out into the cities or I, because I’m from Tennessee, like people went to Ohio and Kentucky in in Clarksville. Cause we had a tire plant that was related to Ohio and stuff. And so but still going out into the city, but not having that education still only really maybe having some skill physical labor.

[00:17:28] Dr. Billy Hensley: Right.

[00:17:29] Bob Wheeler: And then it’s, nobody’s just handing out this information and if you don’t know to ask for it, You don’t know to ask for it.

[00:17:37] Dr. Billy Hensley: Right. You don’t know what you don’t know and you don’t mean. Yeah. Well, that’s the thing about education literacy, financial literacy, all these things that sort of are measures of knowledge, knowledge, gain, knowledge application, and a lot of the educational deficiencies that are sort of tracked in Appalachia in particular, where I grew up, especially central Apalachia,

[00:18:01] my grandfather he had to leave school when he was eight, eight years old, not eighth grade, third grade, right. Uh, To help build the road to. You know, it wasn’t just the road through the Creek. Right at that, like that was at that point, he had to help build the road to help feed his family. So it wasn’t that people didn’t value the education.

[00:18:20] They just had no choice. They had very few choices and, and it was an opportunity for him to make money contribute to the family. And he never worked. He never stopped working. He worked the rest of his life. Right. And died very young because he worked himself to death. Yeah. But you know, That’s the part of Appalachia that we don’t talk about is that, that determination that you’re talking about, the survivorship, the work hard, make it work, make it stretch.

[00:18:45] And on some levels I consider myself a person who maximizes, ever opportunity. And it’s probably because of that. Right. You know, I’m the, it’s not, it’s not a consumer tip and trick thing. It is just in instinctual or maybe it’s learned, I don’t know. Yeah. But I’m the person who squeezes the toothpaste until there is absolutely nothing left in.

[00:19:05] I, you know, back back over it with the steamroll to get one more use out of that toothpaste. Yep. But that’s who I am, you know, but I will also go out and eat a really good dinner cause I love food. Right. And, and be less stressed about that than I am that toothpaste went up a nickel., you know?

[00:19:21] Oh yeah. It’s the essentials that bug me, you know?

[00:19:24] Bob Wheeler: Oh my God. I just, we’ve been talking about this a lot. How much I will save to save a buck and it doesn’t always. Yeah, right. But I’m just like, well, there’s one more drop in the soup can and there’s one and I’m, I’m, I’m a little yeah. Compulsive about getting every…

[00:19:40] Dr. Billy Hensley: yes.

[00:19:40] Bob Wheeler: And we, you know, I grew up in a big family, so man sure. You eat everything on your plate cuz there’s people elsewhere starving. Right. And so I can, it’s it’s very difficult, right. Even in a restaurant to go yeah, take no I’ll take it to go. I’m I’m just, it’s a, it’s a mindset that I fight against. It’s so instinctual it’s so automatic.

[00:20:00] Dr. Billy Hensley: Well, I, you know, we’ve got these layers of our identity. And when you’re thinking about this population that we survey the LGBTQ population, you know, I’m, I’m a, I’m a gay male identifying person. My sexist male, I grew up where I grew, you know, central Appalachia and Eastern Kentucky and the coal fields all of those identities layer on and all of those, all of who I am.

[00:20:24] And I. Layers into my financial life, my financial identity, if you will. Yeah. And when I think about these data in particular I kept thinking about my blue collar background and, and sort of the poorer community where I grew up and all the layers of that as people make decisions. And as people try to navigate, as people don’t even question authority when it comes to like advocating for themselves.

[00:20:47] Yeah. And then I look at these data and I see the discrimination level. And then when I look at our, our trans community, it’s not double, it’s quadruple. Wow, you know, the discrimination. And so when you’re bringing in a trans person, who’s, who’s wanting to live their most authentic life. And part of that is to be able to pay for your most authentic life.

[00:21:08] Right. And when you can’t fully participate in the financial services, it breaks my heart because I’m like, why should we all not have that path? Right? Why should we write off people? You know, why should they have to navigate foolishness at the bank, right. Or at the financial services sector. And the thing that’s fascinating to me is our financial lives are largely remote now, largely online.

[00:21:30] And this survey was done in the spring of 2022. So it’s not old data, right? This is recent data. So it’s reflecting the current financial lives of LGBTQAI people. And we’re interacting with financial services, largely remotely and largely online, and this is still happening. Wow. And it’s about the products it’s about to access and then our trans community they are facing this way worse.

[00:22:00] And then you layer onto that being a person of color. Right. Being a person from a low SES background, it it’s just so much harder. There’s so many other layers. And so we’ve gotta listen, we’ve gotta give voice just like my sweet departed grandfather who worked himself to death had had he had different paths available to him.

[00:22:20] He would’ve been a CEO of corporation. Right. Because he died actually a very successful man. But it took, it was so much harder to get there and if we can help ease the path, if we can create better on ramps if we can shed light that the there’s giant boulder ahead, watch out, then maybe we have more CEOs who represent who we really are as a society.

[00:22:42] Yeah, I think that’s awesome.

[00:22:44] Bob Wheeler: What do you want your legacy at NEFE to be?

[00:22:45] Dr. Billy Hensley: Better data! My job is to assure better data and that, you know, that it’s not just more data, it’s better data. And that, that answer and that conversation probably could take an hour, but that’s my job to assure better data.

[00:23:01] Bob Wheeler: That’s awesome.

[00:23:02] Well, Billy, we are close to the fast five, and I know today we’re on a limited interview schedule and we’re gonna do a couple more. Okay. So, but we’re, so we’re gonna jump into the fast five and I, I will say fast five is really brought you by NEFE in a way, because they’ve been a sponsor here at FinCon.

[00:23:17] Yeah. Helping people be able to use the equipment and, and right. Participate. So thank you, NEFE. Yes, of course. Love NEFE. All right. So I’m just gonna throw these out. Okay. And let’s sort of see where we go.

[00:23:26] Dr. Billy Hensley: All right.

[00:23:27] Bob Wheeler: So do you always handle your own finances with ease and grace?

[00:23:31] Dr. Billy Hensley: Grace, No. Ease. Yes. I mean, I still balance my checkbook every day. Okay. Because that provides me, like, I feel good. Like, I feel like I achieve something, but grace probably not.

[00:23:42] Bob Wheeler: all right. What a, a secret indulgence that you that you like to spend money on, maybe you feel guilty, maybe you don’t, but like, I gotta have it.

[00:23:49] Dr. Billy Hensley: A really good, I’m sorry, vegetarians, but a really good filet from, can I say the brand? Yeah. Can I say the Ruth’s Chris or Capital Grill, those two organizations, those two restaurants and their filets, fill my heart with joy and really good ice cream. Yes. And really good French fries and really good popsicles. It’s all food based.

[00:24:07] Bob Wheeler: It’s food based. All right. I love that.

[00:24:10] I love that. What’s the most shocking financial statistic you’ve seen. That was shocking to you.

[00:24:14] Dr. Billy Hensley: Well, this is positive. Yeah. yeah. We’re data that are positive. 88% of Americans want every single teen in this country to take a financial education course to graduate from high school.

[00:24:27] Oh, that’s awesome. Do you know any other percentage that, that many Americans agree on something? Wow. That’s there’s very few. Yes. That’s a pretty, and I think my goal is to get that to 99.9%.

[00:24:39] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, it still surprises me. Yeah. It is not. And it is not mandatory.

[00:24:45] Dr. Billy Hensley: We’re getting there small, more and more.

[00:24:46] Bob Wheeler: It’s more and states. We are. We are. What emotion do you experience most around money?

[00:24:56] Dr. Billy Hensley: Recently, relief. I’ve paid a lot of things off, yeah. That, that, you know, recently, but in general, there’s always a layer of anxiety. When you grow up working class, when you grow up poor. It never leaves you and I can see it in my mother’s eyes cuz she grew up incredibly. I don’t mean just poor as in didn’t have the new shoes.

[00:25:20] Right. As in she didn’t have running water until she was a teen.. Yeah. That poor. And that, that anxiety transcends, so relief and anxiety at the moment.

[00:25:31] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Is there one place in the world that you really wanna travel to, but you haven’t traveled to yet? Where is it? And are you gonna go.

[00:25:39] Dr. Billy Hensley: I’d I want to reschedule my Mediterranean cruise that was supposed to happen in 2020. Okay. I really want to do that. I want to like enjoy the food, especially the Tuscan food. If it’s anything close to what I’ve had really good here. Again, food, I mean, it’s a wonder. Just go, you know, find a corner and just eat all the time, but yeah.

[00:26:02] I want to go to, to Italy, to the Southern France because of the food.

[00:26:08] Bob Wheeler: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Good, good choice.

[00:26:10] Dr. Billy Hensley: Yes. And, and, and I will do it. Yes.

[00:26:12] Bob Wheeler: Good, good, good, good. All right. So money and motivation our sweet spot, M and M. Do you have a practical financial tip or a piece of wealth wisdom, something that’s worked for you that you could share with the listeners?

[00:26:24] Dr. Billy Hensley: Yeah, I mean, thi this is pretty fundamental and basic, but I, I go back to my first couple of jobs back when you actually got paper, when you started a job maximize your benefits. Take advantage of everything your employer offers because it is compensation. Yeah. You know, your retirement match, your health insurance, your EAP, whatever it is, your employer’s offering, you they’re offering that because they want you to be there.

[00:26:52] They want to incentivize you to stay. Yeah. So use it all. Use your vision benefit. Use your use it. Use it all, you get the most out of it. Yeah. And don’t, don’t leave vacation days on the table because that is just giving back money. Yeah,

[00:27:05] Bob Wheeler: absolutely. Yeah. And 401k match. Yeah, absolutely. Don’t give up the match. It’s amazing. How many people?

[00:27:11] Dr. Billy Hensley: Yeah, I think it’s because people don’t understand what it does to their liquidity. I think if we showed them the calculation of. Like, well, it’s only an extra of $30 a month. You’re getting that may be enough that people still say no because their life is so tight financially, but just know that eventually, you know, maybe you can, as you get a raise, put that in there.

[00:27:31] I, I do think if we, if we. People understood what it did to their net pay that they may participate more often.

[00:27:37] Bob Wheeler: Yeah, I think so financial education, right. Which is what you are doing. That is what you’re doing. Well, I love that you’re out there grabbing the data that you’re out there doing the work and spotlighting the boulders ahead.

[00:27:50] Right. Because there’s so many people out there that, that need, that want that don’t know about this financial literacy piece. And they struggle, they think they’re alone. And so I love that NEFE is out there educating, getting the data, showing it peop to people that can help make a difference.

[00:28:08] Yeah. Because that’s what you need as well is allies to help move us along. So I so appreciate what you’re doing. Where can people find you and NEFE on social media and online?

[00:28:19] Dr. Billy Hensley: You can follow me on Twitter @drbillyhensley, d r b i l l y h e n s l e y. And then NEFE is @nefe_org. . N E F E underscore org.

[00:28:28] And then, you know, LinkedIn, you just look for our name and you, you can find us on LinkedIn and then nefe.org is our website.

[00:28:34] Bob Wheeler: Great. Well, we will put all of that information in the, the links and congratulations on 30 years.

[00:28:41] Dr. Billy Hensley: Yes.

[00:28:41] Bob Wheeler: With NEFE. And it’s just been such a pleasure. I love NEFE, love what they’re doing and excited because we’re gonna be doing NEFE in November.

[00:28:50] Yes. So more to come. Thank you so much. Thank you.